The Homosexual Slippery Slope Keeps Rolling Downhill - Another "Tragedy" In Our Midst But Now Called "Intolerance"By The Heterosexuals
Community of Intolerance
By Jay Michaelson
The Forward
The resignation last week of Rabbi David Kaye from the educational program Panim, after revelations that he had solicited a 13-year-old boy online for sex, elicited the usual expressions of shock from the Jewish community. Of course, we all should be outraged when such immoral conduct is brought to light, but those who follow the Jewish world know that Kaye is hardly the first rabbi to have engaged in it in recent years.
In 2001, for example, Rabbi Jerrold Levy was sentenced to 78 months in prison for sex crimes involving teenage boys. Indeed, a 2000 photo now circulating on the Internet features Kaye, Levy, and Israel Kestenbaum — three rabbis, one from each major denomination, who were all later found to have solicited minors for sex online. And for every one case that makes the news, those of us who work in the Jewish community hear a dozen stories: the whispers about this teacher, that rabbi, and the scandal the school tried to sweep under the rug.
Rabbinic offenders have seduced both boys and girls, but one cannot help but notice that a disproportionate number of them have targeted males. There are no reliable statistics for rabbinic sexual abuse, but government studies show that in the general population, one-third of child sex abuse victims are male, even though only 3-5% of adult men identify as homosexual. Indeed, approximately 16% of boys are sexually abused before the age of 16.
What is going on? Are there suddenly more closeted gay rabbis than there were a decade ago? Or are we, like the Catholic community, merely bringing to light what has been a dark secret for many years?
It does not appear that the problem in the Jewish world is of the same magnitude as that in the Catholic one. Perhaps, as some theorize, this is because the rabbinate, with its expectation of marriage, is less attractive to closeted gay men than the celibate priesthood. Then again, we cannot know how much abuse took place when rabbinic authority was impossible to challenge, and when incidents were quietly buried. Perhaps our scandal is just beginning.
Generally, cases like that of Kaye — who has been praised, in recent days, as a decent man and a good father to his two daughters — elicit responses like "he needs help." Surely he does; how could a well-known rabbi risk everything by sending a naked photo of himself, with his face fully visible, to someone he didn't know? Merely that Kaye's judgment was so clouded bespeaks the severity of his desperation.
Yet the question we must ask ourselves is: Where did that desperation come from? Healthy people, gay or straight, do not molest 13-year-olds. Only deeply disturbed people do — and those are precisely the sorts of people created by the deception and repression of the "closet." Moreover, according to the American Medical Association, 98% of men who sexually abuse boys report that they are heterosexual. Are these really all sick, straight men? Or are they actually, in the words Kaye used when seducing his target online, "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay in the closet"?
Unquestionably, predators like Kaye are the ones responsible for their conduct, but they do not operate in a vacuum.
The Jewish community bears responsibility as well, for the way we perpetuate the circumstances that cause them to hate themselves, distort their sexuality into something dangerous — and, if statistics are accurate, kill themselves at the rate of 4,000 each year in the United States alone. We create "the closet," through our intolerant actions and inactions, our cruel and selective reading of Jewish law, and our endlessly proclaiming the unacceptability of a sexual orientation which is either genetically determined, or fixed so early in childhood as to be an unchangeable part of one's being. In short, we create the very monsters about whom we later profess shock.
Nor are we doing so based on religious authority. Only a minority of non-Orthodox rabbis still believe that the narrow prohibitions of Leviticus 18 extend to all the sexual behavior of gay men (and women). Yet many Jews who are quite lax about their Sabbath observance and routinely look the other way regarding intermarriage become religious fundamentalists when it comes to homosexuality. Consider your reaction to a Sabbath-breaker on the one hand — who merits the death penalty under rabbinic law — and a religious gay Jew on the other. Around whom are you more comfortable? Whom do you fully accept, and whom do you merely tolerate? And is your choice really based on religion? Or, for that matter, on reason?
The "closet" is entirely the wrong metaphor for the kind of repression which leads to acts like Kaye's. I should know — I was in the closet for 15 years, and it is a much more odious, terrible phenomenon than merely hiding in a wardrobe while you do what you oughtn't. Imagine lying to everyone you know, all the time. Imagine feeling that your heart, your way to love and relationship and sexual expression, is actually distorted, evil and broken. And imagine believing that, because of something you cannot change, God hates you.
Of course, under such circumstances, and in a world that has made clear it would reject you if it knew the truth, you would hide your sexuality — perhaps, as I did, even from yourself. Of course you would do everything you could to somehow "make yourself straight": maybe marriage, maybe seeking spiritual solace to fill an emotional gap, maybe even the thoroughly discredited, and completely ineffective, forms of "reparative therapy" being peddled within the religious community and inflicted on innocent young people every day. And of course, you would fail, because sexuality cannot be changed.
And then, without any appropriate means of expression, your sexual urges would find inappropriate ones. Personally, I never engaged in activity such as Rabbi Kaye's, and never once violated the trust of anyone, of any age. But I was hardly a healthy adult when I was in the closet. I met men for sex, not relationship. I lied about my age, my name, my background. And I rarely went on a second "date."
Today, I am happily partnered to a future rabbi, and am blessed to be in a loving, long-term relationship.
That's what "coming out" does — it enables gay people to be as healthy and loving as everyone else. But as the director of a gay and lesbian Jewish organization, I receive emails every week from men and women still struggling in the closet, from all across the ideological spectrum. Charedi adults, modern Orthodox kids, women and men — I've met them all, and while none, to my knowledge, has become a predator like Kaye, all are trapped in the same web of deception, repression and desperation. Many are like powder kegs, ready to explode. Really, what do we expect will happen to someone who fights his innermost being all his life, never has a proper outlet for his sexual expression, and lies to everyone he knows?
And then there are those open secrets. The influential rabbi who was forced into 'reparative therapy' after being accused of sexual harassment by a young male student. The youth director with a past. "Everyone" knows about these secrets, yet no one does anything — even though those of us who have been in the closet know just how dangerous it is. Indeed, one of the most important public voices on the issue of Judaism and homosexuality himself has a "record" of homosexual misconduct, both on his own part and among other members of his family. Yet we pretend that none of this matters, or that we don't know what we know, or that rabbis and communal leaders are impartial about demons they themselves are battling.
Each person is responsible for his or her own conduct.
But as long as we create the conditions that make misconduct all but inevitable, the right response to the scandal of Kaye is not "he needs help" — it's "we need help."
We need to stop demonizing what is natural, healthy and good, using selective piety to mask our fear.
We need to stop believing that what God made can be unmade through coercion or brainwashing. We need to acknowledge that the closeted-rabbi-who-everyone-knows-about may not be worthy of our trust. And we need to see that what causes scandals is not homosexuality, but its repression. Until we do these things, our exclusion and repression will continue to lead to their tragic, seemingly inexorable, results.
Jay Michaelson is director of Nehirim: A Spiritual Initiative for GLBT Jews.
What is so pathetic about the above writer is that he is attempting to sell the Gay agenda as NATURAL, and that WE, the heterosexuals ,are to blame for the behavior of the predators.I'm sorry, I'm mad as hell and I can't take it anymore.
Hey, you are one sick perverted, messed up SOB!!!!
UOJ
The Pink City
Yediot Achronot
Local tourism officials plan on turning Tel Aviv into the gay capital of the world; Israel Hotel Association official: Tel Aviv and gay people are a perfect fit
Danny Sadeh
Tel Aviv is known throughout the world as “The White City” due to the many Bauhaus-style structures that adorn its streets, but the city may soon be called “The Pink City,” as tourism industry heads are planning on transforming the city into the gay capital of the world, Israel’s leading newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth reported.
“Tel Aviv and gay people are a perfect fit,” an Israel Hotel Association (IHA) official said.
The idea was born when IHA Director-General Eli Ziv visited London recently to participate in the 2005 World Travel Market exhibition.
During the exhibition Ziv met with representatives of the homo-lesbian travel industry, and discovered an audience that would travel just about anywhere for a good party, even to the Middle East.
“The gay community has amazing consumer power, and Tel Aviv has a lot to offer to this community,” Ziv explained.
“We have the beach, sun, culture and nightclubs. To our knowledge, gays are capable of hopping on a plane and traveling to the other side of the world just to participate in parties and events that are related to the gay community.”
The IHA in Tel Aviv, along with a local gay rights group, turned to European travel agents who focus on the gay community and requested they prepare vacation packages to Tel Aviv. “We are drafting plans to encourage gay tourism from Germany, England and Holland,” Ziv added. “We plan on approaching travel agents who are aware of the gay community’s needs, launch a special website for gays and advertise Tel Aviv in gay European websites as well.
Jerusalem is scheduled to host the 2006 World Pride Parade , but Ziv is already working to have it moved to Tel Aviv.
“This event could mark the grand opening for homosexual events in the city,” he said. “We need the boost."
Meanwhile, Tourism Ministry Director-General Eli Cohen said he would offer any financial assistance necessary to turn Tel Aviv into the gay capital of the world, and he is not alone: TUI, Europe’s largest tourism conglomerate, has recently decided to offer charter flights to Tel Aviv. Israeli tourism officials said they believe the decision would facilitate the travel of thousands of gays to the country. “It will be helpful to our initiative if they increase the number of flights to Tel Aviv,’ Ziv said.
Our values, and our civilization is slipping away before our eyes.
God help us, please.
UOJ
By Jay Michaelson
The Forward
The resignation last week of Rabbi David Kaye from the educational program Panim, after revelations that he had solicited a 13-year-old boy online for sex, elicited the usual expressions of shock from the Jewish community. Of course, we all should be outraged when such immoral conduct is brought to light, but those who follow the Jewish world know that Kaye is hardly the first rabbi to have engaged in it in recent years.
In 2001, for example, Rabbi Jerrold Levy was sentenced to 78 months in prison for sex crimes involving teenage boys. Indeed, a 2000 photo now circulating on the Internet features Kaye, Levy, and Israel Kestenbaum — three rabbis, one from each major denomination, who were all later found to have solicited minors for sex online. And for every one case that makes the news, those of us who work in the Jewish community hear a dozen stories: the whispers about this teacher, that rabbi, and the scandal the school tried to sweep under the rug.
Rabbinic offenders have seduced both boys and girls, but one cannot help but notice that a disproportionate number of them have targeted males. There are no reliable statistics for rabbinic sexual abuse, but government studies show that in the general population, one-third of child sex abuse victims are male, even though only 3-5% of adult men identify as homosexual. Indeed, approximately 16% of boys are sexually abused before the age of 16.
What is going on? Are there suddenly more closeted gay rabbis than there were a decade ago? Or are we, like the Catholic community, merely bringing to light what has been a dark secret for many years?
It does not appear that the problem in the Jewish world is of the same magnitude as that in the Catholic one. Perhaps, as some theorize, this is because the rabbinate, with its expectation of marriage, is less attractive to closeted gay men than the celibate priesthood. Then again, we cannot know how much abuse took place when rabbinic authority was impossible to challenge, and when incidents were quietly buried. Perhaps our scandal is just beginning.
Generally, cases like that of Kaye — who has been praised, in recent days, as a decent man and a good father to his two daughters — elicit responses like "he needs help." Surely he does; how could a well-known rabbi risk everything by sending a naked photo of himself, with his face fully visible, to someone he didn't know? Merely that Kaye's judgment was so clouded bespeaks the severity of his desperation.
Yet the question we must ask ourselves is: Where did that desperation come from? Healthy people, gay or straight, do not molest 13-year-olds. Only deeply disturbed people do — and those are precisely the sorts of people created by the deception and repression of the "closet." Moreover, according to the American Medical Association, 98% of men who sexually abuse boys report that they are heterosexual. Are these really all sick, straight men? Or are they actually, in the words Kaye used when seducing his target online, "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay in the closet"?
Unquestionably, predators like Kaye are the ones responsible for their conduct, but they do not operate in a vacuum.
The Jewish community bears responsibility as well, for the way we perpetuate the circumstances that cause them to hate themselves, distort their sexuality into something dangerous — and, if statistics are accurate, kill themselves at the rate of 4,000 each year in the United States alone. We create "the closet," through our intolerant actions and inactions, our cruel and selective reading of Jewish law, and our endlessly proclaiming the unacceptability of a sexual orientation which is either genetically determined, or fixed so early in childhood as to be an unchangeable part of one's being. In short, we create the very monsters about whom we later profess shock.
Nor are we doing so based on religious authority. Only a minority of non-Orthodox rabbis still believe that the narrow prohibitions of Leviticus 18 extend to all the sexual behavior of gay men (and women). Yet many Jews who are quite lax about their Sabbath observance and routinely look the other way regarding intermarriage become religious fundamentalists when it comes to homosexuality. Consider your reaction to a Sabbath-breaker on the one hand — who merits the death penalty under rabbinic law — and a religious gay Jew on the other. Around whom are you more comfortable? Whom do you fully accept, and whom do you merely tolerate? And is your choice really based on religion? Or, for that matter, on reason?
The "closet" is entirely the wrong metaphor for the kind of repression which leads to acts like Kaye's. I should know — I was in the closet for 15 years, and it is a much more odious, terrible phenomenon than merely hiding in a wardrobe while you do what you oughtn't. Imagine lying to everyone you know, all the time. Imagine feeling that your heart, your way to love and relationship and sexual expression, is actually distorted, evil and broken. And imagine believing that, because of something you cannot change, God hates you.
Of course, under such circumstances, and in a world that has made clear it would reject you if it knew the truth, you would hide your sexuality — perhaps, as I did, even from yourself. Of course you would do everything you could to somehow "make yourself straight": maybe marriage, maybe seeking spiritual solace to fill an emotional gap, maybe even the thoroughly discredited, and completely ineffective, forms of "reparative therapy" being peddled within the religious community and inflicted on innocent young people every day. And of course, you would fail, because sexuality cannot be changed.
And then, without any appropriate means of expression, your sexual urges would find inappropriate ones. Personally, I never engaged in activity such as Rabbi Kaye's, and never once violated the trust of anyone, of any age. But I was hardly a healthy adult when I was in the closet. I met men for sex, not relationship. I lied about my age, my name, my background. And I rarely went on a second "date."
Today, I am happily partnered to a future rabbi, and am blessed to be in a loving, long-term relationship.
That's what "coming out" does — it enables gay people to be as healthy and loving as everyone else. But as the director of a gay and lesbian Jewish organization, I receive emails every week from men and women still struggling in the closet, from all across the ideological spectrum. Charedi adults, modern Orthodox kids, women and men — I've met them all, and while none, to my knowledge, has become a predator like Kaye, all are trapped in the same web of deception, repression and desperation. Many are like powder kegs, ready to explode. Really, what do we expect will happen to someone who fights his innermost being all his life, never has a proper outlet for his sexual expression, and lies to everyone he knows?
And then there are those open secrets. The influential rabbi who was forced into 'reparative therapy' after being accused of sexual harassment by a young male student. The youth director with a past. "Everyone" knows about these secrets, yet no one does anything — even though those of us who have been in the closet know just how dangerous it is. Indeed, one of the most important public voices on the issue of Judaism and homosexuality himself has a "record" of homosexual misconduct, both on his own part and among other members of his family. Yet we pretend that none of this matters, or that we don't know what we know, or that rabbis and communal leaders are impartial about demons they themselves are battling.
Each person is responsible for his or her own conduct.
But as long as we create the conditions that make misconduct all but inevitable, the right response to the scandal of Kaye is not "he needs help" — it's "we need help."
We need to stop demonizing what is natural, healthy and good, using selective piety to mask our fear.
We need to stop believing that what God made can be unmade through coercion or brainwashing. We need to acknowledge that the closeted-rabbi-who-everyone-knows-about may not be worthy of our trust. And we need to see that what causes scandals is not homosexuality, but its repression. Until we do these things, our exclusion and repression will continue to lead to their tragic, seemingly inexorable, results.
Jay Michaelson is director of Nehirim: A Spiritual Initiative for GLBT Jews.
What is so pathetic about the above writer is that he is attempting to sell the Gay agenda as NATURAL, and that WE, the heterosexuals ,are to blame for the behavior of the predators.I'm sorry, I'm mad as hell and I can't take it anymore.
Hey, you are one sick perverted, messed up SOB!!!!
UOJ
The Pink City
Yediot Achronot
Local tourism officials plan on turning Tel Aviv into the gay capital of the world; Israel Hotel Association official: Tel Aviv and gay people are a perfect fit
Danny Sadeh
Tel Aviv is known throughout the world as “The White City” due to the many Bauhaus-style structures that adorn its streets, but the city may soon be called “The Pink City,” as tourism industry heads are planning on transforming the city into the gay capital of the world, Israel’s leading newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth reported.
“Tel Aviv and gay people are a perfect fit,” an Israel Hotel Association (IHA) official said.
The idea was born when IHA Director-General Eli Ziv visited London recently to participate in the 2005 World Travel Market exhibition.
During the exhibition Ziv met with representatives of the homo-lesbian travel industry, and discovered an audience that would travel just about anywhere for a good party, even to the Middle East.
“The gay community has amazing consumer power, and Tel Aviv has a lot to offer to this community,” Ziv explained.
“We have the beach, sun, culture and nightclubs. To our knowledge, gays are capable of hopping on a plane and traveling to the other side of the world just to participate in parties and events that are related to the gay community.”
The IHA in Tel Aviv, along with a local gay rights group, turned to European travel agents who focus on the gay community and requested they prepare vacation packages to Tel Aviv. “We are drafting plans to encourage gay tourism from Germany, England and Holland,” Ziv added. “We plan on approaching travel agents who are aware of the gay community’s needs, launch a special website for gays and advertise Tel Aviv in gay European websites as well.
Jerusalem is scheduled to host the 2006 World Pride Parade , but Ziv is already working to have it moved to Tel Aviv.
“This event could mark the grand opening for homosexual events in the city,” he said. “We need the boost."
Meanwhile, Tourism Ministry Director-General Eli Cohen said he would offer any financial assistance necessary to turn Tel Aviv into the gay capital of the world, and he is not alone: TUI, Europe’s largest tourism conglomerate, has recently decided to offer charter flights to Tel Aviv. Israeli tourism officials said they believe the decision would facilitate the travel of thousands of gays to the country. “It will be helpful to our initiative if they increase the number of flights to Tel Aviv,’ Ziv said.
Our values, and our civilization is slipping away before our eyes.
God help us, please.
UOJ
posted by Paul Mendlowitz | 7:20 PM
37 Comments:
On a trip to israel i asked someone if i could borrow their map and inside it, not supposed to be seen, was a special color magazine with a headline "Cruising in Jerusalem." I discreetly ignored what I was not supposed to see out of common courtesy, but although I was shocked, I'm not exactly surprised. Will the gay agenda choke erets yisroel, bobov, ger, munkatch, papa, viznitz spinka etc.? I doubt it. Who really cares - except those who are afflicted and their families?
We are in Galus, don't forget. Until Moshiach comes we have no choice but to deal with this aspect of society. People have freedom of choice and if you all really care, then pray for Moshiach and the retuen of the Bais Hamaikdash so Israel can really be like it is supposed to - holy and awesome. Until then, Israel isn't "owned" by an one group. Sorry.
P.S. I am neither Lubavitch or gay.
I left out Lubavitch, sorry gays.
I am anonymous 10:02. The above anonymous isn't me but I am assuming it he/she is referring to an "agenda" that is choking, etc....
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Freedom of choice, should not mean doing destructive acts against civilization.
The world Gay headquarters in Israel for Gays?
I'd rather give it to the Arabs.
The sins committed by the secular (and "orthodox") Israelis are equally destructive. If you want to target gays because of a personal dislike, fine - it's your blog. But look at Israel as a whole. It doesn't get more secular than that. The sin of homosexuality is one of many Israel is guilty of.
One can commit all the "sins" they want as long as it does not impact society.
For the Jewish country to become the Gay world headquarters, is sickening.
Yes, I condemn the seculars for their behaviour, but we are all suppose to be a light unto all nations, even though "they" do not keep the mitzvos.
Is there no line one should not cross, or are all sins equal?
The last gay capital of the world was Sodom where all ages shared those interests.
Their spicy civilization toppled but then, they didn't have uoj to save them.
Gibbon was the one who popularized the notion that homosexuality leads to the downfall of "civilization."
As UOJ undoubtably knows, Jewish tradition avers that Jewish men are not suspected of homosexuality. This reflects the sociological fact that most Jewish men are straight. Gays have always been a minority, the exceptions, not the rule. The only fundamental change is that society condones immoral practices. The vast majority of secular marriages today follow living in sin. If uoj discovered that Jewish youth were living in sin would civilization be "slipping away before our eyes?"
probably. But, this isn't news.
There is sin, and then there is sin that destroys the fabric of life, which is family.
For a Jew to violate Shabbos, is certainly sinful, but NOT depravity.
Jewish kids are commiting sins as well as the society at large, nothing new here.Do you consider sin and depraved behavior having moral equivalance?
Why you so obssesed with 'faygelach'?
You trying to deny some skeleton in your fag closet?
i would agree with der foigel, uoij. Homophobes are generally viewed as falling under the rubric of "kol ha-posel b'mumo posel..." depravity or no.
Moral equivalence is another secular notion. You are a philosopher-king, but our tradition says ein b'yadeinu. We don't know mattan s'charan of anything, kallah or hamurah. Issurei bi-ah include incest, eshet ish, all erode family values and life. Why single out the gay agenda? Unfortunately, I have known a grandfather who molested his granddaughter. I found that personally more offensive than hearing about some parade. But, who am I? I don't have a website.
You have visceral emotional reactions to attacks on Judaism informed by western, secular values. No b.s. Soon you'll be saying everyone should go to college or something crazy like that, chas v'sholom.
Curious: Where is the Chief Rabbi of Tel-Aviv, Rabbi Lau in all of this? Why has he not spoken up? Why is the Orthodox Rabbinate in Israel afraid to speak up on this topic?
Is Family Kashrus and the survival of the Jewish family different from Food Kashrus? Is what you put into your mouth more deserving of rabbinic attention and rulings than where and with whom you put your petzele?
Der Foigel & Above anonymous,
You gotta be kidding!!!
Do you see a gathering of molesters or people who mess with other peoples' wives or "proud" molesters marching down Fifth av. or Ben-Yehuda?
Don't you see a difference between a "movement" of sexually depraved people, different than people who commit awful acts?
That's just my point.
You have fallen victim to their propaganda, your moral line is so blurred, it's "just" another sin.
Ponder this.
Your son comes home with his kallah, and his name is Yossi.
Boog,
These guys are no where to be found. Who is going to mess with tourism money at the peril of losing their full of shit government jobs, or have their government funding for bogus programs threatened?
Lau, in particular, stays away from sex issues, he has a long history of making sexual advances to women other than his wife.
I personally confirmed that with one of his victims and her son.
how is yossi?
Lau is very charismatic, a wonderful speaker, electric, warm. In a word, he's irresistible. I've never seen him do anything inappropriate. I confirmed this with my wife's hairdresser. He has a lot of groupies, women who are attracted to him. He's handsome and eloquent, pleasant and kind, cute. How do we know the accusers are always right, uoj? How can you confirm anything you are not a direct witness to?
I cannot condemn him on hearsay.
As to parades adding or detracting from tourism, I'm sickened by the scene and avoid it. Have people and will people avoid going to eretz yisroel because of some stupid parade, I think not.
Is the gay agenda a conspiracy? sure. why not? But, it affects only a small segment of the population. Their "corruption" of family values is marginal at best.
Most people just want to make a living and see their children do better than they did - like uoj.
It sounds like you are attracted to him as well
is Rabbi Lau in the same situation as tendler from Monsey? don't know...haven't seen the "molested" women by Lau come forward. have you?
What's the real scoop with lau? Jerusalem Report this week says he's looking to run for the Israeli presidency in 2007 to replace Katsav.
BTW, what's the latest with Tendler. Been pretty quiet, lately.
Is it not true that people in public positions are fair game for innuendo, rumor, slander, unfair abuse?
I would not be shocked to hear that anyone lost a battle with the yetser hara, but Rabbi Lau would be dead meat if the allegations were truly proven.
In the California valley there was smoke and fire, but life goes on.
Rabbi Lau, Yossel, IS charismatic. It's no secret that people who look good and present themselves well succeed in our society. I would tell you to watch tv and see who is on, but that would be impossible because no frum Jew watches tv. To recognize when someone looks good is realistic, and if women like him and/or the rabbi in Rechovot it's because they are nice.
UOJ is too good to be true.
I don't have a clue what you are saying.
i guess i was waiting for your truckloads of evidence (plaques etc.) detailing your accusation against rabbi lau.
Anyone can make a claim. For this reason, ours is a litigious society, but to make assertions on the internet without hard facts is a weakness, uoj.
Most humans don't have a clue what i'm talking about.
I have the facts, I met the molested woman and her son in their home in front of her husband.
I have much more to say on this matter...I try to leave the sex issues for Whistleblower and Awareness ctr. and stick to the PHONY BOGUS RELIGIOUS LEADERS.
If it's true, oy.
I never understood how two sons and grandsons of a prominent Rosh Yeshiva known to uoj could fall into publicity defeated by the yetser hara. We're supposed to win those wars, but face it, to lose is human.
m'tokh shelo lishmah...
"Daddy, i want to be phony, bogus religious leader just like you when i grow up."
The author of this article does no one a favour - neither Rabbi Kaye, the gay community nor the frum community. He does not understand that sexuality directed toward the pre-pubescent or "just" pubescent i.e. 13/14 years old, has its own dynamic, and is independent of sexual orientation. Because this is true, this author's argument that openess to homosexuality will help such people as Rabbi Kaye is no more true than the argument that ending celibacy will eliminate scandalous Catholic priests.
Above Anon...,
Extremely well said.
UOJ,
You make me ashamed to be a Jew.
What's on your mind Robbie?
The fact that you find gay people to be such a threat to your way of life saddens me. The fact that you believe there's a "gay agenda" that involves anything more than acceptance and love bothers me.
The fact that you could even hint that pedophilia is the same as homosexuality offends me to no end.
That's what's on my mind.
Robbie,
The Gay agenda is not a threat to MY way of life, it is a threat to ALL of us.
I don't know or care what you do in your closet, attic, basement...just don't force me or my kids to try to believe that men shtupping men is what God had in mind for civilization.
If you are secular, how would you feel about your son bringing home his girl-boyfriend named Joe?
Be honest, damn it, it is WRONG.
What you do in private is none of my business.
There is a link between pedophilia and homosexuality, whether you like it or not.
There is a link between men abusing young girls and heterosexuality, whether you like it or not.
brilliant observation, uoj.
God surely does not want men shtupping men, or anything other than their wives, and he doesn't really want that either once they've produced children. As UOJ asserts, for the fulfillment of Jewish destiny there must be a a Jewish future. Any person's desires for personal or sexual fulfillment and self expression are not really commanded by Jewish ethics.
So, robbie, be offended by uoj - because offensive our master is - but if he takes a hard line he isn't telling you anything you don't already know.
I do not disagree with your statement. What's your point?
UOJ,
I would wish for my son only to find happiness and true love - in whoever it is that God has determined to be his true love, be it man or woman.
I wonder - where do you get your proof about the links between homosexuality and pedophilia? In what science books? What religious books? Where else, other than your mind, does this "fact" come from?
When the greatest scientists of our time tell us that homosexuality is something that people are born with, and even some of the greatest rabbis of our time agree that homosexuality is something that cannot be changed, I refuse to believe that you have the ability to speak for God, that you are a navi.
Your arguments rely only on the emotional - not the intellectual.
If you believe that God created everything in the world the way that God wants, then it becomes obvious that homosexuality was also part of God's plan.
And Anonymous - since when does God not want men and women having sex? There are numerous sources that allow for sexual relationships between married couples who are either finished having children or can never have children.
But, robbie dear, moshe rabbeinu was pirash from his beloved wife - this was the lashon hara miriam discussed with aaron. Why did he do so, despite what later sages such as the Rambam say about what is permissable? The fact is that moshe rabbenu was the greatest navi and intuited that spirituality and physicality are a temporary union.
David and Jonathan loved one another "k'ahavat nashim" - as a lesbian? I doubt it. Their love was spiritual. We each (other than uoj) given negative tendencies from Hashem. Are we meant to exercise them? Is shtupping other than to provide another dor with the opportunity to know Hashem in any other way truly spiritual?
I don't think uoj is right about gay promiscuity, however, in my Rebbe's defense, he admits he's prejudiced. Most folks can't understand what is outside their realm of experience, gays included.
Most of the Orthodox community opposes gay marriage becuz to legitimize gay marriage is in denial of a divine plan.
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