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Sunday, September 18, 2005

Rabbis Get A Message From G-D - Shvartzes Should Learn Torah To Avoid Drowning And Bush Don't F*** With Israel!

Just when I am convinced I heard it all from these shmucks, they come out with new messages from G-D.You have to wonder how crazy can these guys get?
If you ignored the title rabbi, and inserted imam, would you not be enraged?
To me a fundamentalist putz who is certain why people get killed, should be locked up in a nut house.
I don't care if he is wearing a black hat, fur hat (shtreimel)or a dish towel on his head!
UOJ


Nature’s Wrath, Or God’s
Larry Cohler-Esses - Editor At Large-The Jewish Week


When Israel’s most prominent Sephardic rabbi described Hurricane Katrina as America’s punishment for supporting Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza — and condemned its mainly black victims for failing to study Torah — many Jewish leaders here were appalled.

But in Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef’s view linking the worst natural disaster in American history to U.S. support for the Gaza withdrawal is not unique among rabbis.

Rabbi Joseph Gerlitzky, the leader of the Lubavitch chasidic sect’s center in central Tel-Aviv, among others, gave a sermon from his pulpit soon after the hurricane voicing the same theme. A popular radio rabbi echoed him. And a noted Jerusalem kabbalist reportedly also made similar comments.

The leader of the largest Orthodox group in America, the Orthodox Union, specifically criticized Rabbi Yosef’s comments in a widely distributed e-mail.

“I do not think that any living human being, however superior his halachic expertise, can know God’s reasons for natural calamities,” wrote OU executive vice president Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, referring to Rabbi Yosef’s acknowledged authority on matters of religious law. “That God’s ways are often inscrutable is a basic and universally accepted component of our belief system.”

But the head of the OU’s rabbinic group was far more circumspect.

“There are many views regarding God’s ways and the problems of good and evil in the world,” said Rabbi Basil Herring, executive vice president of the Rabbinical Council of America.

The council put out a statement expressing its own view that, “mortal man is not privy to the ways of the Immortal One, and we do not always understand why sadness and tragedy are part of human life.”

When asked directly about the statements by the Israeli rabbis, Rabbi Herring said, “Others may have different views. We would not seek to criticize or judge them.”

Rabbi Avi Shafran, spokesman for Agudath Israel of America, the largest haredi group in the U.S., preferred not to comment on the record when asked his reaction to the Israeli rabbis’ statements.

Rabbi Shafran instead pointed to an article he had written recently expressing his own views as Aguda’s spokesman. In his piece, Rabbi Shafran suggested that the sinfulness of New Orleans residents, rather than the Gaza withdrawal, might explain the destruction and death Katrina visited on their city in particular.

What occurs, at least to me, is that the ‘Big Easy’ received its nickname from the lifestyle it exemplified, one of leisure and (in its most literal sense) carelessness,” he wrote, reflecting on the significance of the tragedy’s main venue. “The city is probably best known — or was, at least, until now — for the unbridled partying and debauchery that yearly characterized its annual Mardi Gras celebrations.”

At the same time, he wrote, in times of catastrophe, “Jewish tradition counsels Jews to point their fingers at themselves.” God, he said, “casts the Jews as chosen” with “a responsibility not only to strive to live exemplary lives in service to the divine but also to see world events as messages.”

Despite the statements of Rabbi Gerlitzky, the Tel Aviv Lubavitch leader, Zalman Shmotkin, a spokesman for Lubavitch World Headquarters in Brooklyn, said of the Israeli’s’ comments, “Clearly no one can claim to know how or why God does what he does.”

It was in his weekly sermon last week that Rabbi Yosef, the most prominent of the Israeli rabbis involved, described the hurricane as “God’s retribution.”

“[President] Bush was behind Gush Katif,” he explained, citing one of the Gaza settlements from which Jews were forced out. “He perpetrated the expulsion. Now everyone is mad at him. This is his punishment for what he did to Gush Katif.”

As for the New Orleans residents who were forced to flee their homes or, worse, who were unable to, or who lost their lives, Rabbi Yosef said, “There was a tsunami, and there are terrible natural disasters because there isn’t enough Torah study … “Hundreds of thousands remained homeless. Tens of thousands have been killed. All of this because they have no God.”

Rabbi Gerlitzky, the Tel-Aviv Lubavitch leader, sermonized on the topic from his pulpit on the Sabbath of Sept. 3. He told the World Net Daily Web site soon after, “We don’t have prophets who can tell us exactly what are God’s ways, but when we see something so enormous as Katrina, I would say Bush and [Secretary of State Condoleezza] Rice need to make an accounting of their actions, because something was done wrong by America in a big way. There are many obvious connections between the storm and the Gaza evacuation, which come right on top of each other. No one has permission to take one inch of the Land of Israel from the Jewish people.”
In an interview with The Jewish Week, Rabbi Gerlitzky stood by his quotes but stressed he spoke to the press as an official of the Rabbinic Congress for Peace, an anti-disengagement group, not as a representative of Lubavitch.

Rabbi Lazar Brody, a popular rabbi with his own radio program in Israel, wrote on his blog even before Katrina hit New Orleans:

“Authorities in Louisiana have ordered hundreds of thousands of people to flee from their homes. … The Talmud teaches ... ‘a turn for a turn.’ My heart tells me there’s a link between the forced expulsion of 8,500 people [from Gaza] and the nearly 850,000 people who are forced to flee their homes in Louisiana. … Hashem [God] isn’t wasting much time in showing his wrath … I humbly believe the unfortunate people of Louisiana can blame Mr. Bush and Ms. Rice for their misfortune. … He who creates exiles in the Holy Land will have a hundred-fold exiles in his own land.”

And Jerusalem kabbalist Rabbi David Batzri, a prominent student of the venerated kabbalist elder, Rabbi Yitzhak Kedourie, echoed the thought. “Divine retribution is meted out according to the principle of ‘measure for measure,’” he told World Net Daily. “Just as the Jews were forced out of their homes as a result of U.S. pressure on Israel, so, too, are Americans being forced out of their homes.”

Israeli rabbis were not alone in their prophetic instinct, of course. A number of Evangelical Christian leaders also linked Katrina’s destruction to U.S. support for the disengagement. And many more linked it to what they decried as New Orleans’ decadence — albeit in much stronger terms than Rabbi Shafran.

At the same time, some Muslim leaders attributed the catastrophe to the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian-born terrorist leader who claims responsibility for scores of bombings in Iraq, made the point in a tape released on an Islamist Web site. And in South Philadelphia on Aug. 31, Black Muslim minister Louis Farrakhan opined that Katrina was divine punishment for the violence the U.S. had inflicted on Iraq.

Among the Jewish groups to condemn the remarks by Rabbi Yosef were the Anti-Defamation League and the Reform movement’s Religious Action Center. But the refusal of some Orthodox groups to criticize Rabbi Yosef’s comments may be linked to his stature.

A former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Yosef is, for Sephardic Jews, without peer among living rabbis as an authority on Orthodox religious law.

“A disavowal of a great man’s comments is essentially a disavowal of the man,” said one Orthodox communal official, explaining their dilemma.

But Rabbi Alan Brill, a professor of Jewish philosophy at Yeshiva University, said the issue is wider than that. The rhetoric linking world events to biblical prophecy has “become a big part of the Orthodox community,” he said, just as it has for Evangelical Christianity.

During the last 15 years, Rabbi Brill explained, a variety of factors have made biblical prophecy and world events a major theme of Orthodox discourse, especially among religious leaders. The Chabad Lubavitch movement’s messianic worldview, inspired by its late leader, is one key factor, he said; the separate messianism of the Gush Emunim settlers’ movement in Israel is another.

For Orthodox Jews in America, said Brill, this all takes place within the broader culture’s increasing fixation on messianic end time themes centered on Israel. He cited Rev. Tim LaHaye’s best-selling “Left Behind” book series as but one example.

“We’re watching an increasing application of biblical prophecy to world events as part of people’s daily rhetoric,” he said. “That rhetoric has become a strong plurality in both the Orthodox and Christian Evangelical community — not the belief, necessarily; the rhetoric, which is used even if followers don’t exactly believe it. No one will say it’s nonsense anymore.”

107 Comments:

Anonymous Dirk Diggler said...

Just when I am convinced I heard it all from these shmucks

To me a fundamentalist putz
SOUNDS LIKE U HAVE A FIXATION.

I guess that anti-gay rhetoric in past posts might've been a cover up

Monday, September 19, 2005 12:01:00 AM  
Anonymous edgar alan foe said...

Dirt Giggolo,
Strange name for a Fundamentalist Jew.

Monday, September 19, 2005 12:04:00 AM  
Anonymous Dirk Diggler said...

u dont know nuttin about me Ed, or is it really GAY UO?

Monday, September 19, 2005 12:06:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

UO,

Are you really daring to suggest that the poor people of New Orleans are not personally responsible and therefore may not being punished for the disengagement from Gaza?

This is obvious apikorsis.

Would you go so far as to suggest, therefore, that we perhaps shouldn't point our fingers and gloat?

If so, what kind of Jew are you?

Monday, September 19, 2005 1:12:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Yessum David,

Ah had a dream.

The Hymies got their butts kicked by fellow Hymies.

Isss our fault master David.
If we only prayed more for our Hymie brothers, we would not be swimming in crap.
On the other hand, we try copying the Jews, now we also have a home on the water.

Moshe Luzer Melech(King).

Monday, September 19, 2005 1:23:00 AM  
Blogger fk said...

These comments are more offensive but I felt similar outrage to see the Chofetz Chaim foundation issue that loshen hora campaign after the tsunami. Granted, that didnt point fingers at the victims but it still smacked of this obnoxious insider understanding of G-d's ways.

I find myself increasingly dissapointed by the lack of wisdom displayed by people who are supposed to possess wisdom in abundance.

Monday, September 19, 2005 2:57:00 AM  
Blogger Heshy said...

I am an orthodox askenazic Jew from Brooklyn.We must respect Rabbi Ovadya Yosef as he is probably the most learned as far as knowing all of Torah in a bekieus way.No rosh yeshiva or cassiduc rabbi comes close to his incredible memory of all of Torah.If he says that it was G-ds justice for Americas pressure to evict the Jews in Gush katif,I believe it.There were many similar and eerie comparisons.The gush katif people were on rooftops waving flags so were the new orleans residence.The gush katif had a woman who commited suicide by burning herself so did a number of new orlean residence out of anguish at the loss of their homes.The rescuers would paint orange markings on rooftops to keep track of which homes were searched for survivors.Orange was the color by the gush katif people.RABBI OVADYA YOSEF HAS THE GUTS TO SPEAK UP.ALL THE OTHER SO CALLED LEADERSHIP LEMMINGS FROM THE REFORM TO THE MODERN ORTHODOX ARE afraid of losing their government programs from the Bush administration so they condemned it in the Jewish week article.Now I just went out to purchase a picture of this great Rabbi and I am adding him to my wall along with our other greatest Rabbis such as Rabbi Avigdor Miller,The SATMER rebbe ztl,Lubavitch,Rimnitzer Rabbi Moshe Feinstein etc.

Monday, September 19, 2005 10:22:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I bet you these same people who point at Bush, the disengagement from Gush Katif, the lifestyle of New Orleans, etc. for Hurricane Katrina bristle when the finger is pointed the other way IE. The contention made by the Satmar Rebbe zy"o that the Zionists and Zionist ideology were responsible for the Holocaust (a contention not made by him alone, see Ikvoso D'moshico by Rav E. Wasserman) Just a thought to liven up the conversation.

Monday, September 19, 2005 11:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great job. You take the man R' Shach called a "donkey with a load of sforim" and try to portray his stupidity as mainstream ultra-orthodox thought.

Monday, September 19, 2005 12:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And to add to my last post about OJ. UO, how about some inside scoop on the supposed community your a hot shot in. Why just cut and paste from the jewish week? Jerusalem jew.

Monday, September 19, 2005 12:34:00 PM  
Anonymous the booger said...

Have to agree with Heshy on this.

Rav Ovadia is one of the very few to stand up and tell it the way it is.

Your viewpoint, UO and DK is nihilistic.

Accountability is tough to face.

Still waiting for you DK and UO, to comment on YU ushering in B'KAVOD GADOL, into their august Beis Medrash, the 10 Cardinals headed by Cardinal Lustiger. Que Pasa? Mi Amigos? When it's your Ox doing the goring you clam up and go into the Witness Protection Program?

Monday, September 19, 2005 1:29:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Monday, September 19, 2005 1:44:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Booger,

I made a couple calls. Apparently, there wasn't the mass conversion to catholicism on YU's campus that you described.

And to you and Heshy, I would suggest that there is a lot of room in between saying why something happend and what it means and a "nihilist."

Booger, you obviously see things in black and white. Either with you or against you, right? That's called Fundamentalism, last time I checked.

And that label fits you fellahs better than "nihilist" fits any of us, even me.

Now go run along and get "chizuk" and generally warm your hearts with pictures of people distraught and suffering in New Orleans.

Monday, September 19, 2005 2:01:00 PM  
Anonymous the booger said...

DK;

You have me pegged all wrong. There are problems all over the gamut of Judaism, pick your flavor. And I have pointed it out several times, e.g.; Kashrus supervision or lack thereof, to take one fer instance.

Your problem and that of UO is that you guys have blinders on. Only the ultra's and hareidi's screw up; all others get a free pass.

Agree that there has not been a mass defection to catholicism at YU; there are a good bunch of people over there.
The point was the entire notion of hosting the Cardinals in the first place. If Harav JB ZL were alive, I guarantee you it never would have happened.

If you beleieve that the neturei's should be roasted for their alignment and support of and with the PLO, (and I agree) then consistency demands that you speak up at YU's ecumenical love-fest with the Catholoic Cardinals.

Monday, September 19, 2005 2:24:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Booger,

Perhaps I overreacted. My apologies.
It was dialogue though, Booger. Nothing more, nothing less. And it wasn't really about theological issues, but the general state of the world. go here: http://www.yu.edu/president/article.asp?id=100538

As for comparing YU to NK, who stands with, not just talks to, a delcared enemy and current killer of the Jews, that is rediculous, and intentionally shrill.

Monday, September 19, 2005 2:42:00 PM  
Anonymous YU Smicha Guy said...

The booger is right. He is not out there to attack you UO. He just dissagrees. The cardinals should not have been allowed in YU. Do straight people go to gay parades? When the mafia goes marching do women from Haddasah come? When Mexicans have a party to they invite Blacks? YU is jewish-They dont need cardinals coming to visit. I am a student in YU but I feel that the leadership is messed up. I am not referring to the Rosh yeshiva or rebeim but the presidents and board members who control them. Most students in the Yeshiva division feel that it's time for a new leadership. Richard Joel, Norman Lamm have got to go. Money controls them. They are nice people but all they care about is their name in the press. They should have said no to the cardinals. In the near future you will see a massive break off from YU. Trust me I am an insider

Monday, September 19, 2005 2:43:00 PM  
Anonymous the booger said...

DK;

I agree with you that comparing the neturei's/PLO to the action's of YU was over the top. I took literary license to stress a point, i.e.; not only the hareidi's and ultra's are carrying baggage. I'm happy to see your acknowledgement of that and that we can talk.

Yu smicha guy;

I also hear seismic rumblings emanating from Washington Heights and it's not from the falafel balls. Have you seen what's happening over at Ner Yisroel in Baltimore? Massive enrollments of good guys that have the opportunity to learn
and then go take college courses in late afternoon/evening. Torah Umaada, indeed! BTW, I hear that R' Herschel Schachter has been approached several times to leave YU but feels a deep Achraiyus to the Yeshiva and the legacy of harav JB, ZL and is staying. Comment?

Monday, September 19, 2005 3:13:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

I have to disagree with both of you. I suspect that part of the motivation for their "dialogue" was the horrible incidents of spitting by yeshiva students, not money.

As for the success of Ner Israel, how does that eliminate the option of YU? Not everyone wants to be yeshivish. Some want to be "Modern."

Let them!!

Monday, September 19, 2005 3:40:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

Booger,

It's que pasa mis amigos, not mi amigos.

Monday, September 19, 2005 4:05:00 PM  
Anonymous the booger said...

Gross;

mea culpa...or is it mi culpa?...or mis culpa. In any event I caught a culpa...thanks for the correction.

Monday, September 19, 2005 4:09:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

The Neturai Karta may be the worst thing to happen to Judaism today.

On the other hand, the cardinals represent the Roman Catholic Church. Let's not forget the purveyors of jewish misery of yesteryear. That those who seemingly represent us,(The people at YU)invite them into our home is reprehensible.
If someone murdered your parents, raped your sister, or sodomized your brother would you welcome their patronage on your estate?
These people are ones who inherited the position of those who commited anti-Jewish atrocities beyond moral comprehension.

Just to name a few......
The Crusades(That was in the name of G-d)
The Inquisition (Although the Church offically was kept separate, that was after they had put the ball into motion)
Chmelnicky and the Cossaks(Only 100,000 Jewish souls, Jewish blood must be cheap.)
The reprisals in 13th century Germany.(whole towns of Jews were obliterated.)
Blood libels in Chezkeslovakia(After all how would Matzoh taste without Christian blood? The Jews were baking Matzoh for 1,500 years before the advent of christianity. How did the Jews make their matzohs during that era?)
Pogroms whenever the peasants( The Red Necks of Europe) needed an outlet.(They didn't have football to entertain them.)
And much much more....

I didn't read about Cardinals visiting Jews in the concentration camps.(Maybe, because the Jews weren't serving coffe and cake.)

If they would love Jews all that much, why don't they return all the Jewish artifacts and manuscripts that they've pillaged over the last two millenia?

Turn the other cheek? How about Cheeky!

We invite them into YU. FEH!

Monday, September 19, 2005 4:13:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Yaakov,

Please tell me which one of the cardinals who visited YU is responsible for any of those atrocites you mentioned?

If you don't want the message of (non-interfaith) dialogue, how about instead we close every yeshiva whose student spits on a catholic priest?

Monday, September 19, 2005 4:25:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

DK

I believe that history is the best educator of all. Every time the Church was able too, they sacrificed Jews in the name of their "savior". Fortunately there are those who can recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing. Otherwise no Jew would of ever thought of emigrating from countries that persecuted them in the past.

Also, why meet in a Yeshiva? Is there no neuteral ground upon which they could meet?

Monday, September 19, 2005 4:33:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Yaakov,

I am not defending the Church. I am saying there has been a consistent problem of yeshiva students spitting and other types of hateful, unacceptable behavior towards Christian clergy in Israel, and it is a big, big problem, Yaakov.

YU obviously felt a very strong message had to be sent. You don't like that method, fine, but what do you suggest? Yelling about how evil the Church is WILL NOT stop the spitters.

So what will? What do you suggest?

Monday, September 19, 2005 4:39:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

I agree that spitting is ludicrous.

Cardinals in our institutions is not answer.

How about yeshivas teaching their students not to spit?

Monday, September 19, 2005 4:48:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Yaakov,

Great idea.

But what if they don't all do that? What if these incidents continue?

YU wants desparately to publicly and unequivocably distance themselves from that sort of behavior. Can you at least appreciate their motivation? I sure can.

These walls (against dialogue of any sort) were created to protect Jews. When the situation changes (state of Israel and perception of strength, not weakness) and these walls are themselves being used to justify odious behavior, these walls need to be rethought in certain circumstances.

Monday, September 19, 2005 5:13:00 PM  
Anonymous the booger said...

Inviting Cardinal Lustiger and his 9 cardinal colleagues into the Y.U. Bais medrash (where I understand, Lustiger gave a very good account of himself over the Blatt...he can even do the thumb and shuckel...red kippah is already in place), won't stop the spitting; it will exacerbate it.

Playing nicey nicey on our turf with the Church will get us nowhere.
Neutral ground, if ground at all, is the venue.

Jewish Pride seems to have become an oxymoron.

Monday, September 19, 2005 5:21:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

I am disappinted that you guys don't see the spitting issue as problematic as I do.

Can we at least agree that the focus I have, which you don't share with the same alarm and concern, though you agree it is unacceptable, is part of the reason we agree to disagree?

Booger,

Do you at least agree that the yeshivas should ALL teach their students not to spit?

Yaakov,

Would you agree that pressure should be brought upon those yeshivas whose bochurim do spit?

Monday, September 19, 2005 5:30:00 PM  
Anonymous the booger said...

Agree DK, yeshivas should teach NO SPITTING

Monday, September 19, 2005 5:35:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Booger,
:)

Monday, September 19, 2005 5:47:00 PM  
Anonymous the booger said...

Hey DK;

I just see the format on my screen...is that a smilie or a spittee?

Monday, September 19, 2005 6:06:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Smiley. Like you aren't sure!!!!

Monday, September 19, 2005 6:22:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

by the way what do you have against Levi Kranz I met him and he seems like a good guy

Monday, September 19, 2005 7:29:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Hey Guys,
Wild and crazy day for me today.
I Believe:
1-YU is a good place for some portion of Jews.
2-Lamm meant well, but messed up bringing the Cardinals in the B.M.
They had no right being there.
3-Lamm has his own shita, which is making nice with these guys can't hurt.
I agree, but I don't believe it helps either.
4-R' Schachter should stay there and work like hell to internally keep his daas Torah as the standard for the school.
If he leaves YU ceases to exist as a viable alternative for the MO.

Monday, September 19, 2005 8:00:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Monday, September 19, 2005 10:29:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

I understand on your point for #4, but would argue that Rabbi Schachter represents the right-wing of YU, and he is by no means the only one there who does, but simply the most respected. As an educational institution, there are other streams within MO that YU services.

If he left and condemned the place, it would hurt that critical right-wing and the general perception of YU.

But YU would still remain a viable alternative for many in the MO camp.

Monday, September 19, 2005 10:30:00 PM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

I believe that a person should look at the tragedies that happen in the world and to try to heed the warnings from heaven. We can not live with our heads in the sand. G-d is definately sending the world a message. However, for anyone to give specific reasons as if its a definite prophecy from
G-d has a smell of arrogance. We should all heed the warnings, and improve whats wrong with us as individuals. This is perhapes a more important message, not self aggrandizing ourselves by claiming to know G-ds reasons. G-d is for sure sending us a message to change our evil ways.Arrogance itself is a great evil.Can anyone claim to be a prophet today?

Monday, September 19, 2005 10:47:00 PM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

Just to add another point. What if their reasons are wrong, then theyare in actuality giving false prophesy which is a great sin. Just a thought. Any comments????

Monday, September 19, 2005 10:50:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

David,
We can have an honest debate about the meaning of "viable".
Perhaps it would remain "viable", because the MO would have nowhere else to go.

Monday, September 19, 2005 11:25:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Kjef1,
Tragedies require introspection only to the lessons learned from those tragedies.
Since noone knows why they happen,
people-all people-should stop making s*** up.
To say that New Orleans was a sinful city, and therfore had the wrath of G-D befall them is so stupid , makes me ashamed of being Jewish.
No sin in New York? Las Vegas? who gets to measure the amount of sin?
Yosef is a pathetic crazy- So what that he knows Shas?
Plenty of genius's are the biggest perverted as.....!

Monday, September 19, 2005 11:34:00 PM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

I still feel that its a message to the world for individual introspection that will lead to
repentance. G-d is definitely
sending us a message.

Monday, September 19, 2005 11:41:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Kjef1,
How do you know G-d is sending the world a message?
Think about it......
Wouldn't he get to the point without keeping us guessing to his message?

Monday, September 19, 2005 11:44:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

BTW- Did he need to kill a million plus children to send us a message sixty years ago?
That's funny(not really), noone ever figured out what that message was!

Monday, September 19, 2005 11:47:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

BTW- Did he need to kill a million plus children to send us a message sixty years ago?
That's funny(not really), noone ever figured out what that message was!

Monday, September 19, 2005 11:48:00 PM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

The message is repentance. Im not claiming to know why new orleans was choosen. THe people of new orleans should be contemplating that.Do you think G-d wants to make it easy for us? Human involvement is always required.If it was so easy, than all G-d needs to do is send us a letter stating
his reasons.Human input is neccesary.There is nothing that happens in this world without G-d.
This is a fundamental belief.

Monday, September 19, 2005 11:56:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Naaa!
G-d is just a racist, and decided to drown a few brothers for their lack of shmeiras hamitzvos.

The nerve of these guys for their lack of Torah knowledge.

Unless of course the brothers went down to remind us Jews what G-D did in the time of Noah?

You see it's all about us!

Every F***** tragedy is to remind US JEWS about something we could have done better or not at all!

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:18:00 AM  
Blogger Shlomo said...

UNORTHO: "Did he need to kill a million plus children to send us a message sixty years ago?
That's funny(not really), noone ever figured out what that message was"!

The message was to do TESHUVA Unortho. Did you delete the toichacha from your Chumash. Unfortunately even in America where we are all victims we will have to give a din v'cheshbon one day and we'll be held responsible for actions.

When you ask if Hashem needed to kill a million children are you implying that the Holocaust was just a random mistake? Was the Churban Bais Ha-Mikdash unnecessary? I don't understand what you're implying. I think this is the first time on this blog that you've expressed complaints against G-d. Congratulations, now you've spoken unquestionable kefirah. How can you fail to see the yad Hashem in a disaster of that "biblical" magnitude?

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:32:00 AM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

Im saying its a warning to the world, jew and non jew. Its a tragedy. We must change our evil ways. It might sound strange, but its reality.There are no natural
events, its all G-d. Im not saying its because of gush katiff, or any thing else. Like i said thats arrogance lifting its ugly head. There is something definitly happening from Heaven.Its a warning.We are all sinners. THis is also a fundamental concept. We must fix where we have gone astray
as individuals. We know what our sins are. Lets start with thievery,
or any other aberation. Is life just a meaningless string of events
devoid of meaning?

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:35:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Kjef1 & Shlomo,
Let's see....we sin and other people die...
especially babies...they deserved to die in ovens etc....
very interesting...

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:41:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Shlomo,
Let me ask you a question for a change.
How do YOU explain Ovadia's statement?

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:46:00 AM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

perhapes the "brothers" need some
encouragement to change their evil ways.You would have to ask the "brothers"? I can only see where ive gone astray. The "bothers" need to do the same, itmight do them some good.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:47:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

I am trying to understand Kjef1. Is it that because you understandably want to make sense out of the holocaust that you also feel a similar need to understand all suffering? I understand that desire, but I don't think it is possible, nor do I think we are required or perhaps even allowed to do that. We can only speculate.
Rabbi Yosef is interpreted as going beyond speculation, an interpretation that seems to be his own doing, and is very problematic.
Can you at least understand why this outrages UOJ?

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:50:00 AM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

I hate to break the news to you. Sin can be devastating. It can bring destruction. Its reality.
When a person steals, robs, murders, rapes-----there is a price to pay.
Its called justice.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:54:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Kjef1,
When does "free will" start and G-d's intervention stop?
Does every thief get justice or just some?
Why do some get justice and some not?
Why do bad things happen to good people??
We don't know, and the people that "know" should be locked up!

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 1:00:00 AM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

I do not agree with the psuedo reasons promulgated for new orleans. I believe it to be arrogance, as i stated above.I just think G-d is speaking to us?
Its a message for individual contemplation. Why is that such a foreigtn concept to you to understand? Is life devoid of meaning?Are we at the mercy of Physics and nothing more? I believe
G-d is in control, and as such i come to my conclusion.A message is being sent. On a simple level because im a simple man , its a call
for repentance. Perhapes, G-d wants the brothers to repent too.
Why not? Hes mercifull to all.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 1:03:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Kjef1,
You is a good man ,bro,I'm going to sleep.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 1:06:00 AM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

Yous a good man to. Pass the bottl, so I"s can lessen my suffering to.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 1:15:00 AM  
Anonymous the booger said...

UO;

Following your nihilistic interpretation of world events, Sodom & Gomorrah was just a random event. No message there.

Yours is indeed a very Jewish approach. Sartre would be proud of you.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 8:33:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Boog,
If you are a Literalist, than you would have a problem with my world view.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 9:38:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Booger,

you are using the term "nihilist" too freely and incorrectly.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 9:57:00 AM  
Anonymous the booger said...

DK;

There are no lessons to be learned from events, interpretations are flawed, etc.
Events occur at random. If that is not nihilism, I don't know what is.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 10:33:00 AM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

UO:

There are many reasons opined by chazal as to why some good people have it bad, and vice versa.
On the other hand it is not our place to create reasons for each independent event that transpires in the world. However, those who claim to be well informed in scripture and talmud are well aware that all catastrophes of great magnitude are the result of G-ds wrath.
Biblical and talmudical sources define this wrath as the result of people's sin.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:08:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Booger,

To claim we don't know the precise reasons for things and therefore aren't accurately able to interpret them is simply not the same as saying there is no reason for things.

You can certainly disagree with the former, but it's not nihilism.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:14:00 AM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

DK:

Every yeshiva has a responsiblity to teach its students how to act when dealing with other people.
Priests,gentiles,chinese,arabs, rednecks , Greek Orthodox, whatever.....

They should also teach them how to deal with their peers with respect.

Also, absolutely NO SPITTING!

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:17:00 AM  
Anonymous pusy shtuper said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:19:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Booger,
Are you trying to p... me off?
Everything I write, you claim I have written something else.
I did NOT say that stuff happens at random, or for no reason.
I did say that the people who claim to know the precise reasons are nut cases.
Of course there are lessons to be learned...., don't live in areas that can be dangerous, don't live in areas that have been devastated by G-d previously, for starters.
Sure, you want to be introspective on your need for tshuva, that does not hurt, does it?
DO NOT TELL ME G-D IS PUNISHING BUSH FOR GUSH KATIF, BY WIPING OUT NEW ORLEANS.
HE WOULD HAVE WIPED OUT WASHINGTON OR CRAWFORD!

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:17:00 PM  
Anonymous david kelsey said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:23:00 PM  
Anonymous un-orthodox jew said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:25:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

I like both

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:25:00 PM  
Anonymous farshtoonkena said...

I like both too

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Good Jew said...

Ou- Have you heard anything about the new Anshei Knesses Hagidola?

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:29:00 PM  
Blogger Ha-historion said...

UOJ,

What do you have against Levi Kranz from lakewood?

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:29:00 PM  
Anonymous good jew said...

sorry, I meant UO not OU

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:30:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Good Jew,
No, I have not been updated.
Please!

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:38:00 PM  
Anonymous un-orthodox jew said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Good Jew said...

UOJ,

Anyways; I know nothing about this so called sanhedrin but I heard that it is alot of bulls**t.

Maybe deep nose can help?

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:50:00 PM  
Anonymous shlomo said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:51:00 PM  
Anonymous the booger said...

UO;

From your track record and responses on your Blog, it's obvious it does not take much as you so elegantly phrase it, to "p--- you off."

My reading comprehesion is, gad tenks, good and your penchant for revisionist explanations and "spinning" what you really meant to say, excellent. You must spend alot of time hanging out with lawyers.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:51:00 PM  
Anonymous un-orthodox jew said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:59:00 PM  
Anonymous shlomo said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:00:00 PM  
Anonymous un-orthodox jew said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:00:00 PM  
Anonymous un-orthodox jew said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:03:00 PM  
Anonymous david kelsey said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:03:00 PM  
Anonymous shlomo said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:04:00 PM  
Anonymous shlomo said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:04:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Someone hacked the site!!!!!
The vulgarities were posted by an imposter!
I must really be hitting alot guys between the eyes!

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:07:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Steven,
I do not know Levi Kranz.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:11:00 PM  
Anonymous un-orthodox jew said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:12:00 PM  
Anonymous good jew said...

I know nothing about this so called sanhedrin but I heard that it is alot of bulls**t.

Maybe deep nose can help?

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Machmoud said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Good Jew said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:13:00 PM  
Anonymous un-orthodox jew said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:19:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Warning!!!!
I am reporting the hackers to the authorities!

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:21:00 PM  
Anonymous Good Jew said...

Those hackers are so annoying

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 4:08:00 PM  
Anonymous JewBoy said...

I am not surprised that they say this.they are bad people.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Cardinal Lustiger said...

Jewboy,
Now you know why I left Judaism.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:30:00 PM  
Anonymous JewBoy said...

cardinal,
what is the real reason?

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Cardinal Lustiger said...

I will go into it another time. Suffice to say that rants like this is one of the many reasons.
May the Lord bless you.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:33:00 PM  
Anonymous tabak said...

You are the Cardinal like I'm the pope.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:35:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Question to you Mr. Cardinal.
When you became a Cardinal, did they sew back the top of your dick?

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:37:00 PM  
Anonymous SAMMY said...

This is a chilul hashem.Please cut this out.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you are right they did cut it out or off.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:42:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

if vulgarity is verboten, how come uoj can use shmuck without deleting himself from his blog?

just curious.

shmuck

Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:56:00 PM  
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Tuesday, November 22, 2005 5:29:00 PM  

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