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Thursday, September 08, 2005

Reinventing The Holocaust

By Naomi Ragen

The Admor of Kalive, Manchem Mendel Taub, has decided that what the ultra-Orthodox community needs is its own alternative to Yad Vashem, the Holocaust Martyrs and Heroes Remembrance Authority, established in 1953 by Israel’s Knesset. According to Moshe Fichsler, who is in charge of the Kalive museum project, haredi youth knows little about the Holocaust.

Could this be, perhaps, because their elders have never visited Yad Vashem, and don’t bring their children? Could this be because even the national moment of silence in which Holocaust victims are remembered, is not honored in the haredi world?

Of course, the haredim have an answer for all that: Yad Vashem has pictures of women without their clothes on. And standing still and remembering is a “gentile” invention.

Now, while I think it is legitimate to debate whether the dignity of the victims is violated by displaying such pictures, it is quite another to boycott the entire memorial site of the Jewish people because of it. As for standing silent and remembering, isn’t that exactly what the high priest Aaron did when he learned his two sons had died?
But I think we do an injustice to our ultra-Orthodox brethren to reduce their problem to such petty issues. In truth, the issues are much, much larger. For when I wander through the dark halls of Yad Vashem, taking in its devastating portrayal of Jewry’s unimaginable tragedy, and then I walk out into the Jerusalem sunlight, something happens to me. I am reminded that all of us born of Jewish parents or grandparents, whatever our beliefs or lifestyles, were treated equally by the Nazis and their collaborators. I am reminded that we Jews are all brothers and sisters, and that the State of Israel was founded to give Jews a home, a place that when we have to go there, it has to take us in. A place where we Jews could arm and defend ourselves from future tragedies. A place we could, as Jews, watch out and care for each other.

But this, apparently, is not the right message for ultra-Orthodox leadership. Why not becomes apparent in reading Ephraim Zuroff’s brave, well-written and most fair analysis in his book: “The Response of Orthodox Jewry in the United States to the Holocaust”.

Dr. Zuroff, an Orthodox Jew, is deeply sympathetic to the efforts of religious Jews to rescue European rabbis and yeshiva students, and he documents with care their successes and dedication. However, as a scholar, he can’t ignore the sad truth that in pursuing their goals, Orthodox leadership often ended up helping some Jews to receive double aid while others starved, all in the name of “enabling [yeshivah students] to continue their studies uninterrupted as if there were no war.”Even after August 1942, when it became clear that wide-scale extermination of European Jewry was taking place, the Vaad ha-Hatzala Rescue Committee concentrated its support for rabbis who faced no immediate threat of annihilation in Shanghai and central Russia.

Nor can Zuroff ignore the fact that many prominent European rabbis, roshei yeshivot, didn’t bother to get their students vital documentation when it was still possible, unwisely squandering opportunities to save lives.

For his scholarship and fairness, Dr. Zuroff has (predictably?) been compared to Holocaust denier David Irving by Rabbi Berel Wein, and discredited by haredi historian Dr. David Kranzler. Their criticism leaves me wondering if either has actually bothered to read the book. (In my personal experience, my harshest critics have never bothered to read mine. That way, it’s so much easier to be critical.)

Yes, the Orthodox Vaad ha-Hatzala was willing to march and protest when secular Jews were too embarrassed (they also refused to march when secular Jews wanted to). They were willing to bend American regulations if it meant saving Jewish lives. And in the end, they were even willing to join with their fellow Jews for wider goals.

But the bickering, mostly over fundraising, between the Vaad and the JDC continued almost constantly throughout the war. True, the JDC sometimes hampered the Vaad’s unusual but sometimes successful initiatives. But without JDC funding, the efforts of the Vaad would have been close to worthless.

The importance of Jewish unity and cooperation seems to be the lesson of this historical fact-gathering. Without conveying that lesson, any Holocaust memorial is worthless.

Thus, the desire of haredim to even remember and mourn separately, to deny their children the experience of sharing in the Jewish people’s collective memory, is unforgivable, as are the attempts to vilify any Orthodox Jew who breaks ranks, bravely exposing unpleasant truths that must be faced about ourselves, our communities and the spiritual leaders we so love to aggrandize into saintliness and infallibility.

The truth is, that when the chips were down, trusting the infallibility of rabbinical leaders cost people their lives. The truth is that when push came to shove, rabbis and yeshiva students worried about themselves and their own, and only very late, and very partially, did they consider the needs of the rest of Jewry.

We see that legacy today in the refusal of the haredi community to do their fair share of military service, or their fair share shouldering the financial and social burdens of the Jewish people in the land of Israel. Yes, I suppose they need a museum of their own. A place unburdened by reality, history, and the growing voices of dissent within their own ranks. But in building it, the haredim will be adopting another invention of the "gentiles" -- Disneyland.

26 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Thursday, September 08, 2005 2:03:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

On his tape on R. Chaim Ozer, R. Wein states that he encouraged people to "get out."

He did no such thing. He encouraged them to stay.

If the frum are so convinced that Daas Torah is always correct, why are they engaging in revisionism?

Thursday, September 08, 2005 1:05:00 PM  
Blogger jewishwhistleblower said...

Sorry, to go off topic here, Unorthodox, but I don't have your email address. Could you contact me by email at jwbtipline@mail.com .

You indicated before that:
>Ohr Somayach Monsey was where I
>landed.

I'm looking into a situation there in the mid to late 1980s where a Rabbi convicted of sexually molesting a child (not in NY) was given probation. As part of the probation, he had to live on the Ohr Somayach Monsey campus. Which he did for several years.

This Rabbi has a long history of sexually molesting children and is currently a documented card-carrying member of NAMBLA.

I'm hoping you might have some information on this outrage. Email me and I'll forward a copy of the legal document that discuss the above.

Thursday, September 08, 2005 2:27:00 PM  
Blogger Shlomo said...

OH! HE ALWAYS told them to stay DK? How many actual conversations of R' Chaim Ozer's were you privy to?

Thursday, September 08, 2005 6:05:00 PM  
Blogger Shlomo said...

Wein Press Archives
Volume 6, #05 - The Holocaust Won’t Go Away

June 01 2000

Wein Press Archives

It is now fifty-five years since the end of World War II. Most of the participants in that struggle by now have passed from the scene. The terrible human atrocity of the Holocaust has been recorded, documented, discussed and exposed as perhaps no other human tragedy in human history. Many museums and memorials have been created and built the world over to mark this indelible stain on the character of humanity and civilization. The non-Jewish world is still disturbed and troubled by the Holocaust. Switzerland, France and other countries are only now beginning to come clean regarding their complicity in the extermination of Europe’s Jews. The wrangle over reparations and restitution of Jewish property is omnipresent in the world, engulfing governments, museums, auction houses, banks, insurance companies and countless individuals. All of these Holocaust reactions, belated as they may appear at first glance, have kept the wounds open and the terrible specter of the death of millions of innocents continues to haunt humanity.

However, the issues of the Holocaust in the non-Jewish world have been narrowed to legal confrontation, settlement negotiations and a general acceptance of moral guilt for actions and inaction during that period of time. The debate about the Holocaust that rages on in the Jewish world is much more fierce, personal and painful. The irony that it is the victim that still suffers from the trauma while the perpetrators of the horror have pretty much gotten over it should not be lost on us. But such is the way of the world. Here in Israel, the Holocaust has served (as has Yom Haatzmaut) as another flashpoint of controversy between parts of the Orthodox world and the secular society. The commemoration of the event - Yom Hashoah - in Israel is marred every year by the dispute regarding the non-participation of much of Orthodox society in the events of the day.

This debate has been sharpened this year by a book published recently to wide media publicity that castigated the Orthodox rescue efforts during World War II for concentrating its efforts in an attempt to save primarily the rabbis and yeshiva scholars and students of Europe. The Orthodox responded, and in my opinion correctly so, that they were just about the only Jewish group in America willing to rock the boat and demand that rescue work be undertaken by the American government and the American Jewish community. In addition, sadly and bitterly, they note that their appeals fell on deaf ears. They therefore had limited resources and limited influence. So now, to stand accused of doing too little and being too particularistic in their rescue effort is sheer effrontery. The debate has also been shaped by a new reality regarding the Holocaust now taking root in the Orthodox world. For two generations the Holocaust was little discussed and hardly ever taught in the Orthodox school systems and from their platforms.

The reasons for this reticence to discuss the Holocaust are varied and mostly unrevealed even today. The secular view of the matter is characterized in an article that appeared in the Jerusalem Report magazine of May 8, 2000, written by Netty C. Gross. She wrote: “The Holocaust devastated the ultra-Orthodox community. And yet, for decades, open discussion was suppressed, failures of rabbinical leadership were ignored, and convenient anti-Zionist and anti-Reform theories were widely circulated. Only now, tentatively, is a new generation of thinkers beginning to honestly confront the catastrophe. The subject has been too painful, too threatening to the community’s beliefs, for anyone to touch. However, today, there just may be the first signs of opening up.”

Professor Menachem Friedman, a self-styled expert on the ultra-Orthodox, puts this case even more strongly: “The major post-war anguish for ultra-Orthodoxy in the 1950’s was that the God of history was a Zionist and they themselves were forced to move here [to Israel] and become dependant on the Zionist adventure. In their view two interlocking tragedies had occurred - the Nazi Holocaust and the Zionist victory. For a number of years after the war, there was complete silence from that community. Ultra-Orthodox thinkers developed a theory demonizing Zionism and imputing to it responsibility for the Holocaust. The clash with Zionism and the challenge of its arguments regarding the Holocaust constitute a dilemma that they can resolve only through the demon­ization of Zionism.” Therefore, when at last, an answer gained acceptance, it attacked both defeats: The Zionists were responsible for the Holocaust.

An even more severe problem regarding the Holocaust is how to deal with the fact that so many sainted leaders of Israel were killed with their communities and that these men of wisdom, holiness and vision were unable to warn or save their communities and themselves in time. This problem is complicated by the escalation of the idea of Daas Torah in the religious world over the past decades. No Jew, no matter how great, was ever regarded by Jewish tradition as being perfect or infallible. The great personages of previous generations are regarded as being greater than those of current times and their behavior and statements cannot truly be judged by current standards and present-day societal correctness. Nevertheless, Daas Torah - the opinions and advice of the sages of Israel in every generation - was and is considered to be the best possible advice on the subject at hand. But it was never considered to be infallibility itself - it was only the best possible advice then available. For the God of history always has the last word on human events and He is not always bound to share the future with His human creatures, no matter how great and pious they may be. However, since in the minds of many, Daas Torah has now somehow become equated with infallibility, the problem of facing the Holocaust in many Orthodox circles and schools creates a doubt in the efficacy of Daas Torah, and the matter is therefore ignored. This matter of the escalation of Daas Torah is an example of the danger of taking legitimate Torah concepts and burdening them with additional layers of well-intentioned piety. Eventually those seemingly protective layers weaken and do not strengthen the original correct concept.

There is no doubt that the Holocaust poses enormous psychological and faith problems for the Orthodox world. But I believe that it poses even greater psychological and ideological problems for the non-Orthodox Jewish society. For if the Holocaust presents immense difficulties for the faithful in God, it provides problems that are even more difficult for those faithful in humans and humanism. It is to me therefore a very strange anomaly that the Holocaust has become the substitute “religion” for so many secular Jews. Yom Hashoah becomes a day not only of memorializing our dead, but it strangely also is a day that testifies to the bankruptcy of all of the secular ideals that currently hold sway over much of Jewish society. For does not Yom Hashoah give the lie to the belief that man is innately good and can be trusted to autonomously behave morally? Does it not prove that the strong can devour the weak whenever it wishes? And by proclaiming “never again,” do we not admit the possibility of it happening again? Therefore, to smugly suggest that it is the Orthodox who have a particular problem with the Holocaust is another example of whistling past the graveyard. All Jewry, as well as all humanity, has a problem with the Holocaust.

There is currently an attempt in the Orthodox world to grapple with the issue of the Holocaust. Curriculums are being written, both in Israel and in the United States, for Orthodox schools to teach the Holocaust, painful questions and all. Accusations against the non-Orthodox world and simplistic answers regarding the spiritual reasons for the Holocaust are now being muted. There is a program in Chasidic circles to create an Orthodox museum to commemorate and teach the Holocaust in Israel. The main theme in all such Orthodox endeavors is to attempt to find some sort of positive message, instances of spiritual as well as physical heroism, in the depressing and dark story of the destruction of European Jewry. The uprising in the Warsaw ghetto was in the end futile. It was Masada all over again. Traditional Jewry never glorified Masada nor considered its fighters’ suicides especially heroic, for it represented nihilism as well as desperate heroism. We, the Orthodox, are searching therefore for a point of heroism that will allow the Holocaust to have greater meaning than just acts of futile frustration, no matter how dramatic those acts may have been. And that is no easy task.

In a recent article in the New York Times, Deborah Sontag described the tensions between the Orthodox and secular communities in Israel over Yom Hashoah. “For many Israelis the shunning of Holocaust Day by ultra-Orthodox Jews rubs extra salt in the wounds of a divided society,” she wrote. Quoting Ephraim Zuroff, she wrote: “The haredim have set up parallel institutions for everything. But one would have hoped that the Holocaust would be the one exception. What did the Holocaust teach us, if not that Jewish unity was essential?” But it is that very point that is the rub. If Jewish unity is essential why then would the Knesset have chosen as the day of commemoration a date that is offensive to Jewish halacha and to the sensitivities of more than a fifth of the population of Israel? The Orthodox feel (and it matters not if this is actually the fact, for human reactions are based on perception as much as on cold reality) that they are constantly and systematically treated disdainfully, demonized and mocked by the secular and non-Orthodox and are crushed emotionally by unilateral decisions that rip the fabric of Jewish unity (patrilineal descent, participating in same-sex marriages, moving electric turbines only on the Sabbath, etc.) and then the onus of not contributing to Jewish unity is laid on them. The truth is that the Holocaust museums the world over record the tragedy of the Holocaust without paying much attention to the spiritual heroism of the martyrs and their religious leaders. These leaders are blamed (wrongly, in my opinion) for not saving their congregations somehow, but are never credited with their actions of nobility of spirit and behavior under the worst circumstances imaginable. It is estimated that at least half of the Jews killed in the Holocaust were Orthodox. One would never know this fact by visiting the existing Holocaust museums.

I therefore think that the Orthodox should be commended and encouraged in their efforts (even if they may appear to be somewhat belated) to face and memorialize the Holocaust. I see nothing divisive in the plan of the Kaliver Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Taub, to construct a Holocaust memorial museum in Bnei Brak. Why is a museum in Bnei Brak more divisive than a museum in a kibbutz (Lochamei Hagettot) near Haifa? The Holocaust left us with more than enough tragedy and grief to go around for all. Commemoration, memory, solace are individual feelings. One size does not fit all. If these are the ways - religious books, special curriculums, added elegies recited on Tisha B’Av, a separate Holocaust museum, etc. - the Orthodox wish to commemorate the Holocaust, why should it be a source of contention in the Jewish world? The Orthodox, for their part, should be much more sensitive to the commemorations of the secular community on Yom Hashoah. There is no need to publicly mock the day. It contributes nothing to the public good or to the Orthodox cause. There is a great difference between personal non-participation and negative public demonstration.

As the generation of eyewitnesses and survivors of the Holocaust inexorably leaves the scene, the effects of the Holocaust on the Jewish people do not diminish. We are still traumatized by the event, even if we were not as individuals touched by its occurrence. However, wrestling with the problems of the Holocaust is a sign of life and hope and faith within the Jewish society. Forgetting or ignoring the event eventually leads to weakness of spirit and a tragic lack of historical perspective.

Thursday, September 08, 2005 6:10:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

The Warsaw Ghetto uprising was not "Masada" all over again. The Jews of Masada did not have to fight Rome. That was over their pride and nationalism. There situation was desperate solely because they made it so.

Rather, the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto had their backs to the wall. They did their own cheshbon Hanefesh - Fight and Die, or Don't Fight and Die anyway.

I am not saying that their ideas were in line with "Das Torah". But it was a different situation than Masada.

Thursday, September 08, 2005 6:18:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Das Torah is a sham when it comes to personal experiences.If you have a halachic shaila go ask a talmid chochom, but for personal experiences, das Torah is a crock.

This is the crap they feed you in yeshiva to make sure that you can never cut the ties with your rebbe/yeshiva, so they can keep control of you and your gelt.

R'Elchonon was in a postion to save his entire yeshiva and hundreds of families in Baronovich.

They got killed AL CHILUL HASHEM, trusting a person who while he was a great talmid chochom, was an idiot in mele d'alma.

The proof is in the graveyard!

Thursday, September 08, 2005 6:40:00 PM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

dear, Why are we blaming the poor victims? It was a terrible time, nobody was thinking clearly.A person does not know the future, people just could not believe that a holocaust could happen. Anyway to blame the Gedolim is outrageous. How do we know what they were thinking? Nobody can fully know anothers mind especially at a terrible period.
Why would Reb Elchonon choose death
than life? It does not make sense.
The Nazi and colaberators are the
murdereres, not the gedolim.

Thursday, September 08, 2005 10:57:00 PM  
Blogger Shlomo said...

"They got killed AL CHILUL HASHEM, trusting a person who while he was a great talmid chochom, was an idiot in mele d'alma." Absolute vile rishus v'kefirah. Those people were stuck there you idiot. My uncle and great uncle learned in Baranovitch. They didn't have money to eat let alone to travel abroad.
My uncle was stuck in Siberia. R' Elchonen could've saved himself and stayed here. Instead, he decided to accept his achraious and return to Europe. The main difference between R' Elchoned ZTVK"L HY"D and you is that he was a mentsch that knew kol ha Torah kulo. You are a self absorbed ignoramous living the kushy life in BP or Flatbush, getting fat off of too much KD pizza and Chinese food all the while crying about how bad everything is.
If you were ever in a situation like WW II with your character, you'd probably end up dead within a few days because you're too soft or you'd more likely be a Kapo or a collaborator to save your fat behind. I'd love to be there when you get your onesh for this blog.

Thursday, September 08, 2005 11:55:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Shlomo,
So your uncles did not have money to eat or travel.
In other words you come from a family of shnorrers; I knew it, I can tell you are a JEALOUS LOW LIFE!Make sure you don't be mishaddech with my family you peasant.
R'Elchonon had more than enough many raised in America to save his ENTIRE yeshiva.
HE SAID" AS LONG AS THEY WERE LEARNING NOTHING COULD HAPPEN TO THEM!!!"
The bullshit you were fed is typical Lakewood/Art Scroll fairy tales.

Friday, September 09, 2005 12:46:00 AM  
Blogger Shlomo said...

Unortho YM"S
Nobody had money in pre-war Europe schmuck! Learn a little history before you open your stupid spoiled mouth. I guess history wasn't your major at NYU. Oh yeah you're a real estate mogul that controls the kashrus industry, valedictorian of your class @ NYU at age 19 and semicha recipient.(RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!) Go to SYRIT, COPE or one of the learner earner programs, maybe there's an opening for a custodian there.

HE SAID "AS LONG AS THEY WERE LEARNING NOTHING COULD HAPPEN TO THEM!!!" You don't know what the hell he said, and I can tell you for a fact he never said that. You're certainally not smart enough to learn any of his seforim, and I know you never saw him speak, so tell me exactly what source are you quoting? I'm jealous of you and DK> You apparently knew R' Elchonon personally. I would have loved to have met him.

Did one of your parents die when you were young? Were you a molested as a child? What the hell screwed you up so badly? I've been thinking maybe you hate yiddishkeit because you're a frustrated homosexual w/ a frum background. Is that why you're so fed up w/ religion? "I can tell you are a JEALOUS LOW LIFE" Again baseless drivel. Jealous of a thumbsucking self hating liar?!?!?!?!? HARDLY! "Make sure you don't be mishaddech with my family you peasant". You're the picture of aristocracy in your B'klyn slum. If I was mishaddech w/ your family I'd rois kriyah. Before I forget GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Friday, September 09, 2005 2:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Torah Home Boy said...

If you want to write against todays politics,thats one thing, DONT write against people like R' Elchonon-YOU ARE NOT ON THEIR LEVEL.

Now I know you are totally full of SH*T. Even the biggest cynics of the generation dont write against Gedolim of yesteryear! SHAME ON YOU!

Friday, September 09, 2005 9:06:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Shlomo,

You wrote,

"Learn a little history before you open your stupid spoiled mouth."

You poor penguin. You really, genuinely, don't know the difference between history and Artscroll Rebbe books and "tales of gedolim," do you?

Guess you and T "home boy" had to cut corners in liberal arts studies when getting the BTL.

Of course you did.

For the record, here is something useful. See? You use the foulest of language, and yet we seek to educate you.

Poor Shlomo.

From dictionary.com:

his·to·ri·og·ra·phy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-stôr-gr-f, -str-)
n.
The principles, theories, or methodology of scholarly historical research and presentation.
The writing of history based on a critical analysis, evaluation, and selection of authentic source materials and composition of these materials into a narrative subject to scholarly methods of criticism."

Any other questions on the study of History, Shlomo, feel free to ask. After all, none in your circle will be able to.

Friday, September 09, 2005 1:38:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

David,
The above clowns are spoon fed bedtime stories.
Instead of Humpty Dumpty, they feed them with stories that make them sleep oh so well.
Gedolim are infallible, everyone died al kiddush hashem-like they had a choice...
These idiots had gedolim pictures ground into their kosher Manischewitz baby food.
They know s*** about what really transpired.
I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT RABBI WASSERMAN'S ENTIRE YESHIVA COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.
THERE WERE EYEWITNESSES TO THE MANY CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM WHILE HE WAS IN AMERICA.
IF HE WANTED TO HAVE HIMSELF KILLED, THAT'S HIS BUSINESS;HE COULD HAVE SAVED ALL HIS STUDENTS PLUS!!!!!
SHLOMO, ALL YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN DUPED!

Friday, September 09, 2005 1:48:00 PM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

All you guys are so full of yourselves. Like you all know what transpied, like you were there. Im
the son of holocaust survivors. There was tremendous confusion happening. Nobody could believe the holocaust could happen. Many people were deluding themselves,untill they found themselves in a concentration camp.
Also, according to unorthodox most jews were not relgious, so they probably did not even consult with their local gadol? Also, for you
to say who dies al kiddush hashem , and who doesnt is arrogant to say the least. I still like your blog. As to shlomo for a Yeshiva guy, you need to be taught
a little Derech eretz on how you speak to people and come across. You can disagree with someone, yet keep your rude comments to yourself
about people ypu dont even know.Things happened during the holocaust we wll never know about.
Atleast ,im humble enough to know that.Im also not a big fan of the
"cutsy' gedolim books. Gedolim are people to, some of their lives were wrought with contraversy as well so lets get real, and they do make mistakes. Only G-d is without fault, to say otherwise is kefirah.

Friday, September 09, 2005 4:41:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

KJEF1,
Some Lakewood guy this shaigetz Shlomo is.

Disagree with him and all kinds of nivel peh vomits out like a drunken street bum.

He is no different than the rest of them, scratch the surface and the minuvel in them comes out.

BOTTOM LINE-there were many, many rabbis, rebbes, and rosh yeshivas that went to their deaths with other people's blood on their hands and souls.

Lessons to be learned; NEVER trust these guys to make LIFE & DEATH decisions for you.
They are mere mortals at best, and scumbags at worst.

Friday, September 09, 2005 5:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This does not suprise me. This has been the problem since the Temple was destroyed and all the difference of opinions were silenced except the proto Haredim the Pharisees. Now two thousand years later they and their mob have paskened and chumraed and treif and kashered and cheremed our people to death until we have reached the state we are now.

We have to break this mindset that somehow somebody put them in charge of everything and everybody. The Torah belongs to us all and they have taken upon themselves to be judge jury and executioner in their Beit Dins. You cant say nothing against any one of them without being told that they know everything and you know nothing so shut up.

These are not the champions of the people and Torah as they would have you believe. Except for a couple of brave individuals they dont get their hands diry like regular proud jews like Meir Kahane did. They think themselves above going to Jail and think that their prayer sessions are a substitute for action rather then as a supplement.

The Haredim are a cult and they are a pox on the Torah and Bnai Israel, they are no better then any of the other.

Dam them and their Mullah bretheren to the same hell.

Friday, September 09, 2005 5:14:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Whew!
The language is a bit too strong, but I agree with your thread.

Friday, September 09, 2005 5:22:00 PM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

I do not agree with what has been said, just for the record

Friday, September 09, 2005 5:25:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

There is a place for the Haredim. But having unchecked reigns of power is not the place.

I would refer everyone to Dr. Haym Soloveitchik (academic son of J.B.), who writes (brilliantly, of course) about the increased power and radicalism of the "B'nai Torah" in his essays in Accounting of Fundamentalisms, and in the the Essentials of Fundamentalism.

UO - if you haven't read these, you must - these are essays within big, big books - check your local university library.

Friday, September 09, 2005 5:38:00 PM  
Blogger Shlomo said...

Pretty weak response DK. I have a bachelors in psych. and a JD., not bad for a "penguin." As for the penguin I'm sure you hip to all the latest fashions. U wear FUBU & Sean John or what? How old are you DK? Are you 40 yet? Are you married? That might be the problem. U have any degrees except for a masters in VICTIMOLOGY. You're always the victim. Poor poor DK, his life is all mixed up and the gedolim are all to blame.

As for you Unortho,
My uncles learned under R' Elchonon. They knew him personally. You can degrade them all you want, but as far as you charge that they are schnorrers all I can say is that you wish you had the maaser gelt their family gives away. As for your ridiculous allegations that R' Elchonon basically killed his talmidim...well that's clealy ludicrous. Was he perfect? Absolutely not, but he was a lot closer than anyone on this board.

If you're trying to advance your cause you won't get very far by maligning people like R' Elchonon. I know you also have semicha like him, (he might've been younger than 19 when he got his, but I won't trust the Artscroll on that I'll wait for Rabbi Kelso's authoritative version until I commit. I am pretty sure he never attended NYU though) and so you're essentially his equal, but I'd bet any amount that you couldn't make through one paragraph of any of his seforim. Oh, that goes triple for you DK. I'm not even sure if you know how to read hebrew.

Friday, September 09, 2005 5:41:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

You "majored" in psychology? Surely you jest. Is that where you learned to make all those pop-Freudian mouthed comments aabout molestation and breast feeding? Is that what you consider "psychology" to be?!?"

I bet you got your undergraduate "degree" from Touro. Didn't you Shlomo?

Shlomo is a "Touro scholar."

Saturday, September 10, 2005 10:55:00 PM  
Blogger kjef1 said...

Hey lets no knock touro. It allowed many yeshiva people to go on to get advanced degrees. Atleast the people that go to touro are trying to make a living for themselves. Isnt that what your problem was with the baal tshuva movement? Lets not knock people who trying atleast. As for shlomo, me and you probably agree on many issues, however, your approach is lacking.Remember derech eretz, common courtesy.

Saturday, September 10, 2005 11:05:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

David,
Funny comment!
Good to laugh after all that cholent!
Shlomo is the scholar from Chelm.

Saturday, September 10, 2005 11:25:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

The sole function of Touro is to keep Penguim riff raff like Shlomo out of Yeshiva College.

And yes, also to allow "many yeshiva people to go on to get advanced degrees." Under the false pretense of providing an education, unfortunately.

Sunday, September 11, 2005 1:12:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When did they do all this? Last I checked was a week ago. Payday Loans Cash Advance

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 4:48:00 AM  

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