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Saturday, August 27, 2005

The Brutal Torquemadas Of The Baal Tshuva Movement

The Brutal Torquemadas of the Baal Tsuva Movement by David Kelsey

After Israel’s victory in the Six-Day War, secular Jewry entered a phase of Jewish history unrivaled in its population’s readiness for a renewed commitment and a return to Torah Judaism at least since the bulk of the Jews of Spain (much more than the Spanish forecast of 1/3rd) defiantly walked out rather than convert to Christianity, and it is quite possibly unparalleled since the Hasmonean victory over the Hellinists.

The Reform “Berlin is our Jerusalem” Movement had been thoroughly discredited by the Holocaust and the Holy City’s recapture. Torah stories of birthrights no longer seemed like ancient tales of a strange and distant land, but a daily reality in the evening news. If anyone still thought this was merely a nationalist phenomenon, the Yom Kippur War made it crystal clear it was a religious one.

Trips to Israel increased for American Jewish youth, and many of them found themselves questioning secularism and liberal Jewish branches.

The bulk of secular Jewry was ripe for dialogue.

But the frummies squandered this opportunity, insisting they would not attempt to take the cake as a whole, but merely satisfy themselves with a few crumbs. Compared to the fallout that had been occurring since the beginning of the 19th century, this looked like a feast.

I have pondered why the frum are so cold and cruel to their secular coreligionists who seek to join their ranks. Perhaps it is because ba’alei tsuvas are considered to be b'nai nidah. Perhaps it is they suspect anyone who wants membership with their club must be disturbed. It is probably a variety of unsavory contributing factors. But it obviously comes from an angry, frightened, dark place of seething contempt – they operate kiruv the way they operate in business – shady, dishonest, and duplicitous.

Nothing illuminates the dysfunctional disaster that is the ultra-Orthodox world like the Ba’al Tsuva Movement. They take decent, secular Jews and attempt to turn them into welfare recipients.

You are not content to help people become religious. You seek to ruin lives. And I know why - because it seems unfair to you that a person can live a normal secular life and then become religious without massive suffering. You want them to suffer. You need misery. Otherwise it could be different, and that’s a scary idea for you ignorant, insular, fundamentalist penguins. Others must suffer so you are secure. So you can justify every aspect of the restrictive yeshiva education you yourself experienced and will inflict on your children.

See? It is a good thing you were brought up like you were – look how miserable they are!

Why can’t you people just get therapy? No one has to know – you wouldn’t be admitting you have a problem to anyone else but yourselves!

There are success stories. Those are the fortunate souls who enter a religious life together as a couple, secular Jews intent on growing, learning as chavrusahs on how much to take on, and continuing to attend to other aspects of their lives.

But that isn’t the preferred way, is it? That is biddie eved. Rather, you prefer to inflict the maximum disruption possible. Better a single person should “work on himself” –which means drive him as crazy as possible short of suicide or a complete mental breakdown.

Come and Hear:

Ohr Somayach, the Dark Light in Jerusalem, is such a nightmare. They feed their beginning students cookies for breakfast, a telling sign of the breakdown they need to inflict in oder to make a new person. They become weak from lack of protein, as they begin to “learn” gemorrah. They do have an ulpan, for those less “serious” students who insist on actually learning the Hebrew language of our holy texts instead of yet another mind numbing course of “hashkafa” or philosophy.

Why don’t they teach Aramaic like that as well? How about a mere half hour a day dedicated to learning the language of the Talmud, and its rules of vocabulary, grammar and conjugation? No, that would be too empowering. Too secular. This is not about education; this is about a radical change of lifestyle. Better to rely on the Rabbi for every last word. Eventually you will pick it up--or not. Who cares? It isn’t really important. It doesn’t really matter if a person is learning. What matters is to take them away from an “environment of sin.”

OCD behavior is encouraged rather than discouraged, provided it isn’t an identifiably a Chassidic “minhag.” The more you run to a Rabbi on the proper way to wipe your ass, and which hand to hold the negal vasser afterward instead of using soap and warm water, the more serious a Jew you are becoming.

One student experienced an unsettling incident in Mea Shearim when a chassid sexually accosted him. The Ohr Somaych Rabbi asked him, “were you dressed properly?” No, of course not. He had been wearing jeans. Therefore, it was his fault. You can’t blame the chassid – wearing jeans is obviously a declaration that you want to wear comfortable pants an ass pounding from a payoshead. Dark Light Rabbis will help you understand not to invite such unwanted and uncomfortable situations. You see? Wearing the proper, ben-Torah garb is more critical than it appears! Oy, the most obvious things must be spoon fed to these poor, ignorant baalei tsuvas. Who doesn’t know not to feed the bears in the safari, or wear jeans around the chassidim? Nebach, he grew up in darkness. Everything must be explained to these simpletons.

Aish Hatorah tries to reel people in using the Torah as a big ol’ crossword puzzle, with their Bible Codes. If you think the Haredi "there were no dinosaurs, G-d put the bones there as fossils" rebuttal against evolution was their best joke, you gotta check this one out. Add vowels as you please. Run sequential equations of every possible variety, backwards and forwards. Come and see--they found a reference to a 20th century event or character this way. Even references to 9/11! WOW! NOW I will filter my drinking water! Never mind that finding something after the event (of course) is the opposite of prophecy. Vat, you still don’t believe? You didn’t see the truth and beauty of the Torah lifestyle when you spent one shabbes dinner at the Hosselbernbachs? Then you must not have z’chus! Nebechal Tinuk shel nishba. Rachmanas Tzlan!

And you have the audacity to wonder why philanthropists like Michael Steinhardt have ceased funding your house of horrors?

I went up north –they didn’t try to get me to kiss mezuzahs all the time. There was more actual text based learning. But it was a grim, lonely place, with an overwhelming emphasis on asceticism. I was subjected to end-of-the-world prophecies at Shalosh Sheudas. Warnings about horrific, body destroying accidents for those outside the B’nai Torah lifestyle peppered the mussar shmoozes. It was weird and creepy, but it was still slightly less annoying than the singing and dancing with the boys that was demanded in Jerusalem. Torah Judaism as misery somehow made more sense than single sex community. One day my Rosh Yeshiva told me that the whole purpose of the mitzvot was to not enjoy life too much. Even shatnezz. I grew weary and depressed from this focus, and eventually began making plans to leave. When I told my Rosh Yeshiva at this branch of Ohr Somayach in northern Israel I was going to leave to go to college, he told me he was davening that I should reconsider. Because it really makes sense that as a child of a scientist with a post-doc I shouldn’t go to college.

Ohr Somayach Monsey was where I landed. To give credit where it is due, Rabbi Rokowsky is not as big a radical as the faculty in the Israeli branches, which is damning him with faint praise to be sure. He does allow students to attend college. But he grew up in Boro Park, he is not a Ba’al Tsuva, and his institution and its faculty reflect his lack of real understanding, empathy, or ability to give direction to those students interested in a less radical Orthodox Jewish lifestyle than the one a significant portion of his students have fled from at their previous Israeli yeshiva. At least they are trying, but it is still a disaster.

My maggid shiur railed against kosher pizza, because it is not “Jewish” food.

Is he out of his mind? My parents gave a (very) nominal nod to kashrut in the house itself, but I ate everything in my youth. EVERYTHING! Kosher is hard enough. Now I should develop the palate preference of a six year old in Poland in 1892? Because it’s not “Yiddish” enough?

I expressed my concern about my professional life. A Rabbi suggested becoming a traveling salesman. A friend of mine asked a different Rabbi the same question. He was told of a “job opportunity” delivering fish. He is also the son of a scientist.

I was to buy and trade second hand clothes out of my car, he was to deliver fish. The sky was the limit! See? Being frum doesn’t prevent a ba’al tsuva from being successful! But alas, nefalim that we are, we couldn’t hold on. We shunned our birthright – of low level jobs appropriate for a couple of eved ivris like ourselves.

What a tragedy the Jews don’t have oil. Then one rich Penguin family, probably originating from Toronto, could sponsor ten more Ba’alei Tsuva yeshivas, and have a special “joint program” for the “bochrim” to also be gas station attendants.

Want to get your professional life together? You don’t need classes, you don’t need internships. Wear blacker clothes, and SHUCKEL HARDER MOTHER F-CKER!!!!!

Have B’tachon! ;)

The b’tachon game sucks. It’s up there with Russian Roulette. It is Russian roulette, except there are more bullets than blanks in this game.

When I told them I was going to YU, they flipped. Only one Rabbi (at the very end) wished me well, and was supportive. In a last ditched effort to save my increasingly wayward neshumah, they had one guy talk to be about some kabbalah mumbo jumbo. He was more the Chassidic Rabbi. They didn’t really get that I was a Litvak, just not yeshivish, and such “spiritual” drivel wasn’t going to change my mind. There are only two paths of the Torah for these people – yeshivish OR Chassidish. The idea that neither is particularly well-suited for the vast bulk of secular Jewry is not even a possibility for these people, but that’s why the vast majority of secular Jews will never become nor stay religious.

Many are like me, and we are the ones who tried. Tried hard, and grew to hate it.

And don’t give me your line about how if a tree is bent, you have to bend it the other way in order to straighten it – that is on one midah at a time, not a whole lifestyle you fools!!! And if you bend a tree too far and too furiously, it will break – if it has a spine.

Why don’t you tell us the truth? That the only part of the Torah that matters are the Chukim? That’s why they are listed first! “Don’t steal” is really written “don’t kidnap”, so that gets rid of that unreasonable goyishe narishkeit. This isn't the King James version, you shaegetz - now sign the Pell grant application - the tuition your parents are paying doesn't nearly cover the needs of the yeshiva. Don’t lie--except in business, and everything is business one way or another.
Our mashgiach read three, (three!!) self-help books on psychology. Look at the expertise our faculty possesses! Such multi-faceted scholarship is not for free.

Much of the money set aside for college went to these places. Instead, I am still paying loans for college.

What matters to these guys is keeping the lowly ba’al tsuva away from the evils of this world: Women (unless he has a Jewish one already – then it’s okay), a job that challenges him (unless he has one already – then it’s okay), and a life of his own (never okay unless he is at least forty and has money – then it’s okay).

You are fools to think you can’t give us a straight answers and good guidance. Later, the more reasonable frummies said, “why did you listen to them?” I said I had stopped. They said well then NOW you can be religious on your own terms! So I asked, “Why didn’t you tell me that then?” Because they didn’t want to encourage me to be less religious.

Bad strategy. Very bad strategy. Now it is too late. I am wounded and bitter about the whole thing. After you burn your hand, you don’t want to hold a hot drink. The time for that was before.

Now I am secular on my own terms, instead of religious on my own terms.

Long term, those were the only two options: Religious on your own terms, or not religious on you own terms. These are the only two options for the vast majority of secular Jews.

Are you really so blind that you can’t see the paucity of the numbers of your “success stories?” Do you know how few of us stay even for a while? Do you not know how many of the ones who do eventually walk out? How many balked, sooner or later, for every story about some guy who did whatever crazy background, and is now “married and learning in Jerusalem?” All their BT stories end like this – but do you really think most stories actually do, in fact, end like that? Well, they don’t. And the few that do are not always as happy as you pretend they are.

You see what you want, or at least speak as if that’s what you see. You only see who is in the daled amos of your (illegal according to town zoning laws, but screw the goyim, right?) basement synagogue. You are like a sleazy telemarketing firm that justifies impossible sales quotas with the one guy who has a great territory and makes them. “See? If he can do it - you all can!” If everyone could make quota, they would change the commission structure yet again. Just like you do – constantly upping the ante if too many succeed.
That guy for you is the kid from a fabulously wealthy family, or the one guy who already has an ivy league law degree. He is your poster boy because he is the exception, not the rule.
Rashi says 80% of the Jews died in the plague of darkness. Therefore, the maximum amount of the secular world you will tolerate returning is just enough to make the Orthodox world 20% of the total Jewish world. Eighty percent MUST GO. And you will make sure they do.

How many of us will really make a long-term commitment to washing our hands with a cup after we piss? In the end, we return to using soap and warm water, like others of this millennium in the west. We don’t not shake hands with women in business. That is your idiocy – and you can get away with it – you dress and talk like you just left Poland. Because you never left Poland. Because life in Poland was so wonderful. If you want to ponder shaking hands in business with women over seven tsuvas, each one longer and stricter than the last, go ahead – that’s what being black hat is for – but don’t impose that stuff on people who grew up speaking English as a first language. Stop telling boys who played little league baseball that they need to wear black hats in the heat of the summer. They don’t need to. It’s bad for them to do so. Tell them not to. You would be helping everybody. I know it's scary, but try it - say it after me - "you, who grew up here in America to a secular Jewish family, have no minhag of donning a felt black hat in 100 degree weather - not even on Shabbes. The Torah does not demand that of you, and in fact, it is probably a very bad idea for you to take on such a minhag on. As your spiritual advisor, I implore you not to do so." Wasn't that easy? Yes - too easy.

We don’t know about all these mind games, that we are supposed to resist your mishagas, that we aren’t supposed to take you seriously. We enter without defenses, arms open, with our belly exposed.

But we learn eventually. And there is a price for such acquired knowledge. It is one nasty kinyan.

But you won’t change, because that would mean you would have too many normal people finding their own path. Anarchy! Hefker! And you would have less freaks striving to speak in broken, penguin English like you (cause three languages in one sentence are better than one!) - instead of the fluent English they were cursed to learn as a nebachel, tinuk shel nishbah. They struggle to be like you.

Feels good, huh? It’s all about ego, isn’t it? Your ego.

And many of you get some twisted chizuk from this, you bastards!

It could be different, but it won’t be.

I have slowly learned to forgive much of what I endured, and forgive myself (to a lesser extent) for having attempted a Penguin lifestyle, but I won’t forgive those who ruined my love of yiddishkeit. Everyone is so concerned about another’s ruchnius, but for their own gashmius. This seems ass backwards of Judaism, but what do I know.

You’re the ones with the Big Mesorah: How to ruin lives.

You had better have been right. There better be no other acceptable way, never mind a better one.

Or you better hope it’s all BS anyway.

Cause otherwise, the Din will be extracted by G-d in full.

138 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 9:10:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

I will be deleting SPAM posts only!

Saturday, August 27, 2005 9:21:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 9:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 9:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am so sorry for how you were treated.But as you surely know now'its those rabbis' and not the religion .YU is a good choice.

Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, I must say that is a very bitter post, Kelsey. I, too am a so called BT, and while I can understand some of your feelings, and while I endured some of the bad advice that comes to BT's as well (such as being advised to sell luggage at a flea market for a "parnasa") my read of your posting is that you are a lonely, bitter person, and probbly had problems prior to spending time in yeshiva. My advice to you is to find you own way in Torah. This includes such little things as dressing the way you want. No, you don't have to wear a black hat. I certainly don't, yet I was President of my "black hat" shul. You need to take a deep breath, determine what you want, and then settle in. You don't need to follow every stupid bit of advice you've received from people who obviously come from a very different background than your own. I am sorry you are so bitter and unhappy. I agree that there are problems in the BT world, but you are a big boy and it is time for you to be grown up.

Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:28:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Shlomo,

I was getting worried about you.
I used to "think" you were a PUTZ,
now I know for sure.

How dare you call David a misfit BT?You're a typical FFB black hat cockroach slamming any Jew that doesn't look like you.
For shame!!!!!

Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:31:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

BT,

So happy you are president of a Blck Hat Synagogue - proof you have "arrived."

Of course I am bitter -I was 17 t the time, and naive.

Don't worry - I am least angry about the dress code - and as we all know, anyone who isn't happy in BT land surely has mental problems. You and Shlomo are so right - you should start your own shul and be co-presidents together.

Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:39:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

Shlomo,

That nust have been a horrible experience, but it is no excuse to label UO as a "self-hating" Jew.
Please get a hold of yourself, and be more rational and less inflamatory. Try to discuss these things reasonably.

Saturday, August 27, 2005 11:00:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Shlomo,
Re-read my bio.
I love Judaism, authentic Judaism.
The stuff being practiced today IS NOT AUTHENTIC JUDAISM.IT IS BULLSHIT!!!!!

It's been hijacked by fundamentalists like you!

Now that I know you are a BT, I have a bit more respect......but you are a nut case...I don't care how you were raised.

Saturday, August 27, 2005 11:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kelsey:

I think there are lots of interesting things you could say about the "ba al tshuva" movement, but you haven't said them. You've touched on some problems that do arise, but you are so full of bitterness , your posting just doesn't come across as a thoughtful commentary on the subject. Calling rabbi's "Torquemadas" is akin to calling them "Hitlers". You started your bt experience at 17. I can't imagine that you are even out of your 20's yet, based on your adolescent sounding post. just, chill out, man....take it easy and try to enjoy the good stuff, and appreciate your blessings.

Saturday, August 27, 2005 11:21:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

BT,

Don't give me that "akin" garbage. Stick to what I said- "no "akin."

Glad it worked so well for you. It didn't for me. Guess I'm so the rare exception, right BT?

Saturday, August 27, 2005 11:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know Kelsey. We all have our issues and challenges. I don't know whether you are an exception or not. But your bitterness and immaturity come through loud and clear. That is the real problem here, not the rabbis and fellow Jews who probably had your best interests in mind. Calling fellow Jews "torquemadas" is childish. I know a fellow BT who really went off the deep end, was bitter like you, and then converted to Islam. He now runs a horrible web site and tries to get his fellow Islamic lunatics to murder Jews. Does this pathetic loser mean that the BT movement is a failure? No, it means that this guy is a loser, big time. I hope you do not fall into that category, but you sure are bitter and full of "sinas chinam"....you really do have to try to get over it, for your own sense of happiness and well being, if nothing else.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 12:52:00 AM  
Blogger DK said...

BT,

I gave my reasons why I am angry. I have certainly not converted to Islam, nor called for the killing of Jews.

With the exception of the hyperbolic comparison which I did employ, you have not given any examples of anything I said that you claimed was inaccurate, but have, rather, resorted to character assasination.

If you think the "derech" of these places is, in fact, acceptable, by all means, explain how I am wrong, and how it is a good system, and why it should be continued as is.

If, however, the best you can do is to say I am a Hamasnik, you are grasping at straws. I am secular Jew, to a large degree, with some residual Orthodox nuance, but I am hardly an Islamic fundamentalist.

I am done with all fundamentalism.

I recommend discarding fundamentalism to people of every faith. It's some bad sh-t.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 1:00:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, let's see here...As far as your challenge to me to "prove" you "wrong", there is not much to work with. other than repeatedly calling Orthdoox Jews "penguins" and referring to the "penguin lifestyle" you really haven't said much, Kelsey. That you did not think you fit in very well in the "black hat" world...ok, we accept that. It's not for everyone. Go to Israel and you will meet Orthodox Jews living all kinds of lifestyles... though I would hardly call Ohr Somayach a black hat place...but whatever, to each his own....

Sunday, August 28, 2005 1:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One more thing...you complain about "fundamentalism" but the last line in your little essay is that G-d will "extract Din"....

That is about as fundamentalist and harsh as you can get, Kelsey.

Maybe you should take a long hard look at yourself....

Sunday, August 28, 2005 1:16:00 AM  
Blogger DK said...

It was a conditional call for Din, BT. On their advice and direction being false. Since according to them, they did nothing wrong, and had, as you said, "my best interests at heart," they have nothing to worry about. Just a big fat piece of Gan Eden ahead.

Right?

Sunday, August 28, 2005 1:23:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

David what are these quotes about:'How many of us will really make a long-term commitment to washing our hands with a cup after we piss? In the end, we return to using soap and warm water, like others of this millennium in the west. and this :The more you run to a Rabbi on the proper way to wipe your ass, and which hand to hold the negal vasser afterward instead of using soap and warm water'
Please tell me you haven't picked up this unhealthy obsession with feces that other members of unorthodox's 'board' have.You happen to be wrong about this.Who in heaven promotes not washing their hands with soap after the bathroom?????Neggel vaser is NOT instead of soap.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 1:25:00 AM  
Blogger DK said...

Eli,

When there is never any soap to be found, nor hot water, that is a pretty good indication on where the emphasis is.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 1:27:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

C'mon David , You can do better than that!
There are problems with orthodox Jews and I mean ALL orthodox Jews, not only those 'terrible' Satmars/neturei Karta, but this little 'soap' tidbit is not a fundamental reason or practice of orthodox Jews.
I agree with some of your substance regarding the baalei teshuva yeshivas, but why do you lower yourself to Unorthodox's cheap rhetoric and vulgarities?The bottom line is:You can't 'blame' these yeshivas from turning you off from orthodoxy as you well know that they do not have a monopoly of orthodox Judaism

Sunday, August 28, 2005 1:36:00 AM  
Blogger DK said...

I know that now, Eli.

I didn't know that then.

My limited understanding of Orthodoxy at that time were a few very special Jews who identified with this movement.

And when you are in Jerusalem, most of the Orthodox look pretty damn frum.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 1:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 3:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I also learned at Ohr Somayach (over 25 years ago), and I agree with many of David's complaints, but I also agree with Jake that the Rebbeim are not doing high-pressure tactics and certainly not 'protein deprivation' or anything like that. (The 'advanced' students are another matter altogether.)
There is a tremendous amount to improve in the kiruv world, but most if not all of the people involved are well-intentioned and it is a start, at least.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 3:25:00 AM  
Blogger The Hedyot said...

The Ohr Somayach of today is a very different place than it was 25 years ago, even 10 years ago. Back then, it was common to see people of all sorts of backgrounds, variety of dress, appearance, etc. Nowadays, the black hat at OS is commmon. They still have a beginner focus, but they do not encourage variety like they were known to back then. Much of their focus now is getting people up to speed so they can fit into typically yeshivish places like the Mir.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 7:13:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think this whole post makes it obvious that the solution to this problem is the same as the solution to all the other problems in the frum world, and that is to teach Rabbis to know their place. Just because someone is a whiz in Gemara or Halacha doesn't qualify him as an expert in medicine, psychology, occupational counseling, politics, economics or anything else, and maybe he's even worse off than the average guy on the street.
Why would an Ohr Somayach student even think to ask a Rabbi what to do with his life? Only because he's not aware that the Rabbi is just some yeshiva guy who learned (hopefully) a lot of Gemara and needed a way to make a buck. He has no training or experience in anything else, period.
These Rabbis (and the bigger ones as well) are at fault for sure, but probably we are all at fault for looking for miracle tzaddikim who will have the answers to everything. As soon as people start to wake up to the fact that a Rabbi is just a Rabbi, just like a doctor is just a doctor or a lawyer is just a lawyer, the frum society will start to become normal again.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 7:27:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whoever told you to not use warm soap and water to wash you hands after you go to the bathroom is a profound ignoramus...there is no such halacha...

There have been some great people involved in Kiruv over the years...

Maybe, David, you just focused on the most silly superficial aspects and mistook them for Torah...

I do not believe that the baal tshuva yeshivas engage in protein deprivation like the cults.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 7:28:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In response to the comment that Ohr Somayach is not what it once was, I know that quite well since I drop in there from time to time, and one of the main aspects in which it has changed is precisely in the fact that many or most of the Rebbeim in the Israeli Ohr Somayach are former students. Are they more or less qualified to run other people's lives than their predecessors? I don't know, but I think they all should get out of that business.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 7:31:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well...there IS such a thing as Daas Torah...there ARE some rabbonim who CAN offer excellent advice on many aspects of life. BUT, and this is the big problem, there are a lot of rabbis who are TOTALL UNQUALIFIED to offer advice and as a result they offer Really Bad Advice... The challenge for all of us, BT's included, is to learn to think for ourselves! Yes, and to recognize who is and is not qualified to give good advice. You don't run to a lawyer for medical advice. You don't run to a doctor for legal advice. You can ask a rabbi for advice on life, but make sure the rabbi is wise, level headed, and experienced. You have to know who to ask and then, even then, you have to THINK FOR YOURSELF!

Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:11:00 AM  
Blogger DK said...

Rabosai,

When you are learning the basics of Ultra-Orthodoxy 101 and 102, you are not really in a position to "think for yourself" within a Torah based lifestyle, you are still learning the basics.

Your suggestion that a BT have all of this figured our at a young age while beginning a radically different lifestyle is not particularly helpful after the fact, when by then you have learned the hard way not to trust frummies for direction of any sort.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

My understanding is that the BT movement adopted the FFB indoctrination methods of daas Torah, of the traditional yeshiva world.

Which means plain and simple that you lean on your rebbe for EVERYTHING.

After all, after living a life of sin, everything a BT does is potentially sinful.

David is sharing his experiences, while there may be some good results, the vast majority of kids in the BT movement DO NOT make it.

Yes, blame the rebbes who act like gods, most of them are shmucks that could not make it in the traditional yeshiva movement.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:30:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Eli,
You are jealous of David that he's on the board and you're not??
Sharpen up your thoughts and writing and submit a five hundred word essay,
WHY I'M DYING TO BE ON THE BOARD OF UN-ORTHODOX JEWS.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:38:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Shlomo,

Authentic Judaism is:
People who keep ALL FOUR CHELKEI SHULCHAN ORUCH!

NOT THE BASTARDS WHO PICK AND CHOOSE AND LEAVE OUT CHOSHEN MISHPOT!

Orech Chaim is relatively easy to keep in America, there practically is no yetzer hara to be mechallel Shabbos and eat tarfus.

The nisayon today is Choshen Mishpot,AND ALL REBBES AND ROSH YESHIVAS(save a very few) are mazeiden.

To hell with the behaimas and thieves that do away with the parts of the Shulchan Oruch that makes them uncomfortable.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:48:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Rebbetzin,

I am not familiar with the particular goings on at Chaim Berlin by Fruchthandler.
Deep Nose comes up short as well.
Please e-mail verifiable information to a_unorthodoxjew@yahoo.com
I will verify and publish.
Thanks

Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:53:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People who are troubled prior to becoming baalei tshuva sometimes think that by becoming fum, all their internal and external problems will go away. It is a cult mentality. When the problems don't really go away, they get hostile towards their teachers, just as they were hostile towards their parents. Judaism is not a cult, but people sometimes do approach it as a cult phenomenon, a crutch, on opiate...and it will not work. Yes, some rabbis have given really bad advice, so learn to think for yourself. Get your act together and put your head on straight. Don't be a mindless follower.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 4:30:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Since the BT industry is full of "Rebbeim" who are BTs themselves, the same BS is taught over and over. These teachers never learned authentic Judaism so they are unable to transmit it.

What they are able to do then is bash anything that intimidates them (like a REAL education & life) and make you feel like drek for "wasting" your life.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 4:50:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Shlomo,

YOU PATHETIC HALF BAKED LAW STUDENT FROM BMG(LAKEWOOD).
GET YOUR STUPID TUCHIS DOWN TO FEDERAL COURT AND CHECK OUT THE COURT RECORDS ON EVERY SINGLE NAME I EVER MENTIONED IN MY BLOGS!

I WILL DONATE TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR EVERY STORY I MADE UP TO THE TOMCHEI SHABBOS OF YOUR CHOICE!

GO FOR IT,YOU PETZEL,WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOSE??????

Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:02:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Gross,
Good to have you back!
I thought you took a job blogging for GM or something.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:07:00 PM  
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Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:14:00 PM  
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Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:18:00 PM  
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Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:23:00 PM  
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Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:25:00 PM  
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Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:32:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:34:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

I am deleting SPAM posts only!

Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:42:00 PM  
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Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:53:00 PM  
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Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:57:00 PM  
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Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Sunday, August 28, 2005 6:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Sunday, August 28, 2005 6:29:00 PM  
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Sunday, August 28, 2005 6:35:00 PM  
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Sunday, August 28, 2005 6:44:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Amen!

Sunday, August 28, 2005 9:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

kjef1: you are completely wrong about what lawyers do. I am a lawyer, have been one for more than 25 years, and am proud of my profession. You write against hypocrisy and loshon hara and then smear an entire profession of people...you are a phony.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 9:39:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Kjef1,

Lawyers are never concerned by TRUTH;advancing their clients interests and winning are all that count.

I have more respect for used car salesmen than I have for ANY lawyer.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:21:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Attatlaw,
When was the last time you told the TRUTH???

Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:22:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

UO: Lawyers represent clients. I have NEVER lied in my career and most lawyers I know are ethical people. As a group, lawyers are actually more ethical than the population at large as lawyers have some concept of ethics, having studied it. If a lawyer is caught violating ethics, the lawyer can be reprimanded and even lose the right to practice law. This happens fairly often. Not every lawyer is honest, but the majority are very decent people. Most laymen don't have a clue what lawyers do. I have NEVER gone after an innocent person to protect my client. However, I represent my clients with utmost zeal and I am a very successful attorney...

Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:31:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

ATTYATLAW,

One question,If you knew your client was lying,would you refuse to represent him?

Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your questions is very broad. Clients lie all the time. They lie to me, to the other side, to the court, and to themselves. I have an obligation, as an attorney, to represent my client within the boundaries of legal ethics.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:49:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Attyatlaw,

I appreciate your honest response to my question by not answering it.

You will advance your clients position even though you are certain he is lying.

That makes you an accomplice to the lie!

Well, you say, that's my job.

EXACTLY!

Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I have more respect for used car salesmen than I have for ANY lawyer."

ANY lawyer? What about fellow board member Farshtoonk?

Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:44:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shlomo,

I am growing tired of your BS. You are a typical yeshiva guy who thinks they're hot sh**t for attending law school.

Besides for being a total cliche, you are also a hypocrite. The issur of listening to Lashon Hara is just as great as speaking Lashon Hara. Your repeated attempts at convincing UO of his "wrongdoings" have gone ignored. Your "job" is done. Now go back to impressing your fellow fourth-tier alumni.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:51:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Gross,

Great respect for Farshtoonk the man; he did pick a "smelly" profession.

Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:59:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Gross,

Shlomo got lakewood to give him a B.S. degree,he is probably taking some on-line law courses at the University Of Penis.

Monday, August 29, 2005 12:02:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know if he's finished with school yet but kids like him don't stand a chance in the real world. I know the type. They'll fress him up alive.

Monday, August 29, 2005 12:08:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Monday, August 29, 2005 12:13:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

I hope sooner rather than later,the guy is a pain in the tukey.
In order for us to have a diverse readership of normals and not normals, I leave his posts on for us to be able to say B"H we are not like him.

Monday, August 29, 2005 12:13:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Monday, August 29, 2005 12:22:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Monday, August 29, 2005 12:22:00 AM  
Blogger Tex said...

Un,

It looks like i need a terminology lesson. I'm not really sure if matters to you all, but by now, I'm sure you've guessed I'm not jewish. Oh well, if you have the time or feel like taking pity on me, please let me know some things for better understanding.

Tex

Monday, August 29, 2005 1:03:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Hi Tex,

Ask all the questions you feel like, I will answer them to the best of my ability.
I have many friends that are not of the Jewish faith.
Welcome to our blogspot.
The UOJ Boys.

Monday, August 29, 2005 1:26:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To tell you the truth, UO, I will not knowingly advance a client's claim if I know it is false. I have refused to go forward in cases where it is obvious the client is a liar. A false case is a frivolous case, and there are ethical and legal proscriptions about advancing a frivolous case. I have dropped cases in the middle when it became obvious the client was total liar.

Monday, August 29, 2005 7:17:00 AM  
Blogger DK said...

Rabbi Tarfon,

I would love for all the ba'al tsuva parents to see your allegations that everyone who doesn't agree with your radical movement in its entirety is "troubled", and that people freuqently approach this movement as a "cult."

You are better, in your defense of these institutions leaders, at explaining why they should all be shut down than I am in my attacks.

Monday, August 29, 2005 10:48:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:07:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger DK said...

Another intelligent, heligeh rebuttal from the Penguin faithful. Behold - Am Kodesh has spoken.

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Attyatlaw,
It sounds like you could be an exception to my rule.
Kol Hakovod!

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:36:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Board,
Should I leave those previous posts on?
Christians and many secular jews read our blog.

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:37:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

David,
Great response to Rabbi Tarfon.

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:39:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Monday, August 29, 2005 12:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Remove those posts

Monday, August 29, 2005 12:18:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Some PUTZ is using my name!
I AM HERE TO STAY!!!!!!!!

Monday, August 29, 2005 12:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

kelsey: I am not impressed by your ability to understand what you read. I did not write that everyone who becomes a ba'al tshuva is a wack job. I wrote that some wack jobs become ba'al tshuvas. There is a world of difference between the two statments. I'll leave you a few hours to ponder the logic, and then if your response shows that you can follow the thoughts logically, we can resume our discussion.

Monday, August 29, 2005 2:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Monday, August 29, 2005 2:32:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shlomele,

That was quite funny and original too. At least the deep fryers @ KD make an honest living and usually know their place. They don't fantasize about "first tier" law schools.

Monday, August 29, 2005 2:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How are you R' Chaim Stern,um uh I mean unorthodox jew, Stop pretending that you are someone whom you are not. Remember When we were in 10th grade together and I asked rebbi to switch to a different dorm room because I couldnt sleep because Chaim Stern was making tons of noise jerking off three times a day? Do you remember the time you were caught with the janitor in his room only wearing your boxers? Do you remember the time you were caught in Shoprite with your hands down your pants and looking at magazines(Which wasnt even porn)? OH and do you remeber in 11th grade when you asked eli stein to give you a blow job? you even promised to return the favor. But now You make it sound like you're a married rich fellow when in reality you are a 22 yr old who doesnt have a highschool diploma when all the "jerks" in the your class got one. All of those "yeshivish bastards" worked very hard to get their diploma. BTW, half the class is going into good professions and still remain part of the yeshiva world. Oh! I forgot one more thing-Try to hold in your taavahs for men and be like the rest of the world and go for a girl. I bet you if you lose 200 lbs you can get one. Oh! one more-now that you are 22 it really is not appropiate to jerk off 3 times a day,try to limit it to once a day, and then slowly wean off. Unortho/Chaim Stern, I hope you do well in all your endeavors.

Moshe Cohen

Monday, August 29, 2005 2:48:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

Of course, Rabbi Tarfon. And let me guess the breakdown according to you- all the BT's who stay in your fashtunkene system are the normal ones, all the ones who don't or have issues are the "whack jobs."

Isn't that a bit convenient even for you?

Rabbi Tarfon - I would love a public debate with you - on from the secular Jewish parents.

We will let them ponder your logic, and mine - and see what they make of the "world of difference" between our repsective takes on thse horrible institutions.

Monday, August 29, 2005 3:01:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Hi Moshe,

I should have known you would be able to figure out who I am.

I will try to keep it down to TWICE a day,once a day is way too much to ask.

Nice to hear from you.

Monday, August 29, 2005 3:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

DK:

Sorry you are such a loser. This whole blog is populated with losers, misfits and crybabies. Except for the poet, he is funny. You are all a bunch of dweebs.

Monday, August 29, 2005 5:17:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

Moishe,

We can't all be a bunch of welfare recipient followers who express our loyalty to fundamentalist leaders by making sexual and masturbation references like you do.

Keep up the good work!

DK

Monday, August 29, 2005 5:31:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Mose Pipick and all other pipicks,

WE must be doing something right, we're getting about FIVE THOUSAND HITS A DAY!

EAT YOUR HEARTS OUT!

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I did not make any references to masturbation and the other subjects you mentioned. You are confusing me with another Moshe on this board. Why don't you learn to read you pathetic little twerp. You, sir, are a LOSER. I read your little sad story about how all the bad mean rabbis made you so sad. Oh Poor Little David, if that is your real name.

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

By the way, kelsey you dumb jerk, I am not a welfare recepient. I own two businesses and do well thank you. I don't know anyone on welfare except for chassidim and for them its part of the culture already. So, you little dipshit, as soon as you grow up, you can have a job too.

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:15:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

Wait until you read my next post, Moishe K. Your horrible BT movement is going to come under increased scrutiny by the general Jewish community by the time I am through with you - and you know what that means - the same thing it always means when your institutions come under audit.

Bad Rabbis will go DOWN!!!!

Keep laughing Moishe K. And Moshe Pipik. You and your chevra have nothing but name calling as a defense.

You will be calling all of us much worse when we are through with you.

Of course, it could take a bit of time...

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:26:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

WAY TO GO, DAVID!!!

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ba'al Tshuva Blues
By Farshtoonkena Yid

His life was in tatters,
His ego destroyed,
His parents he hated,
Each day was a void.

A spastic at sports,
a failure at school,
and beset with a complex
about his small tool.

He then met a rabbi
with black hat and beard
who taught him to daven.
He get really weird.

He grew his beard long
and donned clothes of black,
He became a fanatic
and stopped wiping his crack.

His rabbi had told him,
(Or so he had thought)
that you can't use your hand
to wipe that bad spot.

So he hired a dog
To do the deed right
But then his rav told him
"A dog! He could bite!

"No dogs for a Jew!
to lick out your crack,
Grow your beard long
Get dressed in the sack!

"Don't look at women
Stop stroking your schlong
Don't even touch it,
That would be wrong!

"And don't got to movies,
And don't go to bars,
The beaches are ossur
And so are sports cars.

"Don't drink in one gulp
And cover your legs!
Don't work for a living.
Hashem said to beg!

"You can't go to college
and don't read any books.
Forget all you know
Ignore all the crooks."


The rav said to marry
he tried very hard
but no one would date him
except a retard.

And that's the sad story
of Ba'al Tshuva blues
The poor sad Ba'al Tshuva
That's the Ba'al Tshuva blues.

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:40:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Farshtoonkin,
You crack me up.
I'll let you sue me, anytime.
UOJ

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:47:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Shlomo,
That poem was talking about YOU!
David got out in time!!!!

Monday, August 29, 2005 7:18:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

Shlomo,

There was (and apparently still is, though not like once aupon a time) a town 60 kilomters northwest of Vilna called "Jonikelish". There was a man named Moshe Chaim who was born there, but sailed across the Atlantic Pcena, and went through a place called Ellis Island.

I'll let you figure out the rest, but suffice to say it was in a time when you and the rest of the fundmantalists refused to leave Eastern Europe for the "treife medina."

How did that work out for you? Wuestion is open to all you Penguins whose families declared America the "treifa medina."

Monday, August 29, 2005 7:59:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

David,
I wouldn't waste my time with that pathetic loser, Shlomo.
He gives whacko a whole new meaning!

Monday, August 29, 2005 8:10:00 PM  
Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

This post made me sad and angry, and scared for a friend of mine who's going to one of the 'less bad' yeshivas you mentioned soon.

Monday, August 29, 2005 10:07:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

Steg,

Your friend is in danger.

Make sure he reads this post. And get ready for another one! It will be up shortly.

Monday, August 29, 2005 10:29:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

Shlomo,

I'm glad you are happy with the way Eastern Europe worked out. By all means, go back.

Monday, August 29, 2005 10:52:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Dear Rebbetzin,

The problem is that Shlomo the LAWIAR can't read!

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:50:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

The Eastern Europe frumkeit was a myth.
The percentage of "non frum" yiden, pre WW Two was 90%.
The terminology "Al Kiddush Hashem" implies that they had a choice.
That's the lies we were fed in yeshiva.
Our people were slaughtered like cattle,Hashem was nowhere to be found!!

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:59:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

Rav Rudeman was a Godol.

JN was the greatewt Rabbi of the latter half of teh 20th century.

We have not had a Rabbi of that caliber since then that I know of.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:00:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Was HE there?
Where?So he saw and let it happen?

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:10:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

No, but i do know where he is not!

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:21:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

That's a myth.
The secular Jews and most frum Jews DID NOT recite the Shema.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:47:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

BTW,
I am NOT disputing G-D's existence,
He could not have been in Auschwitz.......

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:49:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

I had relatives there, and swore no shema was ever heard.
Art Scroll fairy tales at work.

Please, when you find out where He was, please let me know.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 1:12:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Shlomo is one confused alcoholic.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 1:14:00 AM  
Blogger DK said...

I meant JB - hit the wrong key.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 2:10:00 AM  
Blogger DK said...

Shlomo,

The men you would consider pre-war greats either did not understand the dangers they were facing and demanding their people stay and endure, or did did not care.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:54:00 AM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

Un-Orthodox Jew
ON HISTORY CHANNEL'S INTERVIEWS with ss and polish guards they claim they heard shema daily from the gas chamber.


Also "HE" was having a Lowenbrau with hitler

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:31:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Amshinover,
10% of six million is six hundred thousand.
Is it possibble they heard the shema daily?
Yes.
The myth that Eastern Europe, in particular Poland, was dominated by religious Jews, is B.S.
Pick up any book with pictures of pre-war Europe, it was a sewer.
This alter heim fantasizing is delusional.
Most people lived in dire poverty and were miserable.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

David,
The facts are that many rebbes were shmucks, and so full of themselves, they refused to deal with the ugly reality.
They also were being paid real well by the local poretz to keep their herd in line.
That's the UGLY TRUTH.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

sorry to hear so many are unhappy

my parents are bt's they love life
from my expeirence most b'ts are not happy people before they start, thats why they start looking

most people dealing with B'ts don't know the basics of psycology
and they mess up these guys worse than they where before hand

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 1:31:00 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 1:39:00 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

This alter heim fantasizing is delusional
and dangerous,we need to be aware that there were zaydas at risk too.

The facts are that many rebbes
and rush yeshevos
were shmucks, and so full of themselves, they refused to deal with the ugly reality
or accept zionism,
to do so would've cost them position,power and prestige.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 1:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jake,

Who's calling who "juvenile?" Go back to blogging about your kindergarden teacher because it is clear that you are incapable of critical thinking.

Allow me to quote you:

...Unfortunately, a vast majority of Jewish bloggers write about how much they hate frumkeit. They typically bring to the table precisely the same arguments every time. Let me list a few for you....

*** "Frum people are all shnorrers stealing from their in-laws and the government!" ***

This might be unfortunate, but does not establish anything about frum people's character or their religion. It is just a statement of economics.


What?! Stealing and shnorring does not establish anything about one's character? What kind of twisted logic is that?

Why don't you thank me for the free plug and then get lost.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:00:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Amshinover,
What's up with the zaydas?
Speak clearly.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:04:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Shlomo & Jake,
I,m opening a shul for slow people.
The membership is free,just bring your own pacifiers.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:15:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shlomo still thinks the Lubavitcher Rebbe is alive. He is not to be taken seriously.

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:35:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

Jake,

You are not disproving my point. I never called BT's "losers."

I would like to see all BT's encouraged to do as you have done, and to complete their secular studies at the best university they can attend (not some PACE or TOURO bullsh-t), and not languish at these horrible BT yeshivas.

If - as I claim - they are discouraged from doing so - do you agree with me that this is terribly wrong and inappropriate?

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:59:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

rabbi kokis wrote a article in the JO a few years ago

the jist was every sitch with bt's is diferent

HE SPOKE ABOUT HOW RAV SCHACH ADVISED A BT WHO WANTED TO LEARN HIS WHOLE LIFE TO FINISH HIS DEGREE, TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT HIS FAMILY IN A NORMAL WAY

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 1:05:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

No Yitzy. Every situation is not different in regards to college. These boys almost all come from families that believe in college education. They should all be advised to finish and start degrees.

I have met many BT's who have been angered at being discouraged from doing so, regardless if they eventually get them or indeed don't get them.

I have not met many who are, long-term, happy with not doing so.

I think the situation is pretty simple and clear. You don't need a gadol considering it each time.

This may be the one situation where, indeed, one size fits all.

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 1:18:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

David,
Hit the nail on the head as usual!

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 3:12:00 PM  
Blogger Paul Mendlowitz said...

Jake,
When I grow up, I hope I can be like you.

Thursday, September 01, 2005 12:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

David Hu? on college

One size fits all? please

get over your own story and grow up

Thursday, September 01, 2005 12:23:00 PM  
Blogger DK said...

Yitzy,

The fact that you have resorted to hurling a personal insult when you previously sought a debate suggests I've hit a nerve.

Thanks for the lead - you will see the subject matter explored in depth in a later post. If you would like me to credit you, I will be happy to do so, just let me know!

Thanks again,

DK

Thursday, September 01, 2005 12:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and how does aish kodoesh institute rate?

Monday, September 26, 2005 2:50:00 PM  
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Tuesday, November 01, 2005 10:22:00 AM  
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Hey,

I just discovered your blog for the first time this night.


I have to say I went to Ohr Somayach Monsey too. You are voicing my anger and frustration with that whole world and mind set. I am reading your blog and saying holy cow who is this person I must have seen everyday at yeshiva but never really got to know. You have all the words I so wanted to scream at the rabbis with. I can tell you R. Braun really screwed my life over! I am 29 I am trying to get my schooling over with so I can get on with my life and get a good academic career in a university or college. I was advised by the said rav to get a crappy job instead of finishing my BA in Archaeology and Anthropology. When I finally started growing a pair and going against his wishes my life in Monsey started going down the crapper…..

Anyway, I will not leave my blog link for fear of having annoying anonymous attacks on my site.

Take care and G-d Bless,

Mendy S.

PS What years were you in OS Monsey?

Sunday, December 25, 2005 1:01:00 AM  

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