Saturday, July 30, 2005

The Enemy Within-Part Two-The Evolution of Right Wing Fanatacism

There are four separate catagories of movements that constitute right wing Judaism in the U.S.A.

1- Yeshivishism
3-Agudah/Lobbyism/Government Activism.
4-Boro Parkism/Flatbushism

There are overlaps in ideology or lack thereof between the above groups.
The tzad hashava(common denominator) between all of them is money and power.

This blog will focus on category one, or Yeshivishism.

I attempt to keep my blogs" kurtz and sharf"(brief/short & sharp) rather than short & sweet.

The Yeshiva" movement", as we know it today, began after World War Two.
Of course there were yeshivas around before the war, but it was not a" movement", it was a place to get your child educated.

There is a huge difference between the two.

One of the main differences is that before the war the yeshivas were institutions, run by board members and not by individuals.
Certainly the heads of the yeshivas were where the board members looked for direction, but ultimately, and sometimes after great battle, the board rendered the final decisions.

Rabbi Aron Kotler(RAK), was the first yeshiva head to turn yeshiva education into a movement.
That means he had absolute total control of everything.

Yes, he had baalei batim that supported him financially, but they had no say in anything at all other than the mundane issues of dinners, housekeeping etc.

It was his way or the highway.If you dared to condradict his philosophy,there was no tshuva, you were history.

He was on a mission to replace the lost Torah scholars of churban Europe, a very noble and what most people believed was an unrealistic task.
While an extremely worthwhile project, it was not what people are now calling that idea, an idea of "genius."

Many refugees had the same idea.To name a few; the Rebbes from Satmar,Klausenberg,Rabbi Y. Kaminetzky, Rabbi Y.Ruderman, Rabbi M. Feinstein and probably twenty to thirty other prominent refugees from churban Europe.

What made RAK's idea a bit more novel was his concept of Torah Lishma.That meant that his yeshiva was to enroll anyone that wanted to learn Torah exclusively, there was not to be any other considerations about secular education or any education that would teach one a parnassah..etc.outside the world of Torah.

The yeshiva and Hashem would provide.

Money was hard to come by, but RAK was a super salesman, he had a niche product; a salesman's dream.
He believed in his product and targeted every single Jew with a conscience and money.
He played on the Holocaust; which resulted in the demise of most of Judaism, and the death of most European Torah scholars.

To use a tired but appropriate cliche; he was in the right place at the right time.

His customer base was broad, comprised of the bright yeshiva students with a future in chinuch to the yeshiva boy who had nothing else to do but to go out and get a job.
All were welcome.
Naturally, every boy that came into the yeshiva had family and extended family that RAK approached for funds.

Slowly but surely not only did he encourage his idea of Torah lishma exclusively, but he was beggining to claim that all other ideas of learning Torah in conjunction with any other learning was against halacha.

He used outlandish and very descriptive language to make sure his ideas were well understood.

He passed on, and his ideas were used by his students as a springboard to what became Yeshivishism, or right wing fanatacism.

The primary yeshiva to promulgate this new trend was the Philadelphia yeshiva led by Elya Svei and Shmuel Kaminetzky.
Svei a noted and erudite talmud chochom was well known for his kannaus or intransigence.

There was another side of him which was generally unknown and that was his desire and goal to control the Yeshivish movement
singlehandedly,after RAK's death.
Kaminetzky, not nearly as bright but realized he would make a good front man, did just that.
They created the first Ivy League yeshiva.
They made it difficult to get in, unless a student was very bright or of course there was money in the family.

In a relatively short period of time,their campus was built with state of the art facilities, and they had no mortgage.

Svei was free to wander off to head Torah Umesorah, and ultimately almost brought the Jewish day school movement to the brink of disaster with his outrageous and outlandish nonsense.
What played in New York, did not play well in Peoria.
He did not get his way and was forced to leave.

He tried his shenanigans at the Agudah's Moetzes, and again was marginalized, until he left the organization.

His students idolized him, although it was clear to any rational observer of the Jewish scene, that he was losing it and doing way more harm than good.
His speeches were long and rambling, and his message was hard line, irrational and incoherent.

Nevertheless, He solidified RAK's ideology of Torah lishma,where it now became shameful for anyone to ever consider doing anything other than becoming a lifer(kollel for life.)

Easy for him to say, he now had a multi million dollar campus paid off completely, and a student base primarily of wealthy kids.He did not take in any Iranians or Russians until he was absolutely shamed into it.
Nice guy!

Shneur Kotler, RAK's son, took over the reins at Lakewood.
He was a simple guy, and was not a Torah scholar of stature.
There were rumblings and discontent over his automatically being named rosh yeshiva, but the antagonists were quickly dealt with by removing them from within the yeshiva.

This was the first time in the non chassidic world, that a yeshiva was turned over to a non qualified family member.All the other major yeshivas at that time, upon the death of their rosh yeshiva, picked the rosh yeshivas from the best qualified candidates.

G-D fearing Jews understood the yeshiva did NOT belong to them, they were doing Hashem's work, and therefore the yeshiva belonged to the klal and NOT their family.

An ugly and dishonest precedent was set, and the uncouthed tigers were out of their cages.

Shneur Kotler evolved into a charismatic fundraiser.

He inherited a well oiled machine, and worked real hard.

A confluence of factors caused the "movement" to grow geometrically.

The onset of the Vietnam War, the Baby Boomers and the seeds of serious financial wealth in the Orthodox community were very definite contributing factors to this astonishing growth.

By the time that Shneur Kotler passed away in the mid eighties, the cultish concept of going to Lakewood was solidified.
ANYONE could park himself in the yeshiva with no supervision, and stay as long as they felt like it.

Again, the yeshiva(or rather Shneur's wife) put at its head a way below average Kotler,her son, and for window dressing they titled other relatives with meaningless positions.

The Kotlers had their dynasty with access to millions of dollars of the public's money, as well as millions of dollars in questionable government grants.
Until today, no person can dare enter the yeshiva without filling out a government assistance form that goes directly into the Kotler coffers.

The common denominator between the greatest advocates of learning for life, are TWO FAMILY OWNED INSTITUTIONS WITH TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN REAL ESTATE UNDER THEIR FAMILY NAMES.

Elya Svei and Shmuel Kaminetzky have their imbecile kids running the yeshiva, while Kaminetzky is globetrotting and Svei is at home hallucinating.

The two Kotler brothers have under their direct control and legal title to approximately one hundred million dollars in real estate, in addition to millions of dollars a year in gross income from the public and the government.(in many cases bogus programs)

In summary, these two institutions, by claiming that it is forbidden to get a secular education in order to feed one's family, have no risk of going hungry themselves.
They are charlatans of the first order.

Rabbi Yaakov Kaminetzky had advised some of his best talmidim that it was in their best interests to get a college education.
Rabbi Hutner encouraged college education for individuals with no interest in earning a living in chinuch, and was himself college educated.
In addition,the two above great rosh yeshivas DID NOT PASS ALONG THEIR YESHIVAS TO THEIR FAMILY.

My point is this.

The dishonesty of preaching a philosophy that will bankrupt families and create so much misery for generations, must come to an end.

The Chofetz Chaim ran a grocery store.

It is not shameful to take care of your wife and children, it is shameful not to.
To hell with the Sharptons and Jacksons with beards and black hats.

When you start living in two room apartments and have no money for food, give us a call.

Until then, stay far away from our gullible kids.

To the idiot financial backers of these fraudulent money grubbing hucksters, stop being accomplices to the greatest crime to hit our community in recent memory.


Anonymous Yeshiva Bachur said...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that this is a matter of sour grapes. In all likelihood, because you did/do not have the qualifications, you did not get into philly/lakewood and thus feel the need to knock them. However, knowledgable people of those reading your blog know the true status of philly/lakewood and their talmidim.

Saturday, July 30, 2005 11:43:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


What did RAK say about Rabbi Ruderman and Ner Israel? Or Rabbi Hutner? Which college did he go to?

Also - did Rabbi Hutner and Rabbi Ruderman have more respect for JB than RAK?

I mean, obviously they didn't approve of YU, per se -but was there a difference and nuance in their view of him and modern-Orthodoxy generally?

Yeshiva Bachur,

Do you really believe the silliness you are spewing? As if Lakewood is anyway some super exclusive place? If we could bet if Un-Orthodox was a good student, would you really bet against him? No, you wouldn't. Not with your own money- and I would make the stakes high.

So why do you resort to attacking Un-Orthodox's intelligence? He is clearly more articulate than most frummies - and has an obvious interest in history to boot.

I can only guess you have nothing better to retort with.

That is to say, you have nothing.

Or you would have said something real.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:00:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:23:00 AM  
Blogger Rachack said...

Here is the comment that Un-Orhtodox made and deleted:

Un-Orthodox Jew said...


RAK did not get along with Rabbis Ruderman or Hutner,they tolerated each other,barely.
R'Hutner went to the University Of Berlin, where he studied philosophy.
JB and him were friends in Europe,and stayed in touch in the U.S.A.
In principle, Hutner felt his talmidim needed to be prepared for the the world outside the yeshiva,
just as he prepared himself at the University Of Berlin.
He never regretted going to the university, and his only daughter got her PHD from Colombia.
1:23 AM

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Yeshiva Bachur said...

D.K. said:

" So why do you resort to attacking Un-Orthodox's intelligence? He is clearly more articulate than most frummies "

Just because one may write well, doesn't mean that the prose they write is of any substance or worth reading...unless fiction such as Danielle Steele is your forte.

Moreover, your use of the pejorative "frummies" is indicative of your true agenda as well as the high self esteem you perceive yourself to be.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:47:00 AM  
Anonymous yeshiva bachur said...

Rachak said:

" RAK did not get along with Rabbis Ruderman or Hutner,they tolerated each other,barely "

One wonders why you would sully the picture of the brisker rov by having it appear along side such sheker vechazv (Guess it is a good thing your blong will be terminated shortly)

In fact Moreinu Harav Aron Kotler and Rav Hutner worked very closely together and had great respect for each other (something that I was personally witness to; Whereas you had yet to be conceived, let alone born)

It usually is good practice for one to have done some research or personal knowledge, before making an allegation with respect to facts which are clearly false, as is the case herein.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:55:00 AM  
Blogger Rachack said...

EN, you didn't clearly read my comment, I prefaced by saying that that was the deleted comment that Un-Orthodox posted and then deleted. I just re-posted it for everyone to see his stupidity.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:56:00 AM  
Blogger Rachack said...

On my own blog I wrote a post saying that I feel that fancy writing is somewhat of a logical fallacy when it is used to win an argument. The URL is


Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:58:00 AM  
Anonymous yeshiva bachur said...

When you are using the itzlela derabanan, namely the rov Zatza, you have to be very careful. Your comment is misleading at least, even if you claim your opinion is well explained on your blog.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:06:00 AM  
Blogger Rachack said...

but I even wrote that that is the comment that UO deleted right before.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:16:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


Prose is not specifically fiction, nor is this format or subject matter a romance novel. Please do take those community college courses you are considering.

And if you don't want an intelligent conversation, that is fine - but you are being rediculous name-calling Un-Orthodox or myself with insults on my blog (as you have done) for preferring it. This is not arrogance as you suggested, this is how adults approach things if interested in discourse.

I might have issues with some attitudes of some from ultra-Orthodox backgrounds - which I admit I am not from - but I thought Talmud study, which and correct me if I'm wrong gentlemen, uses a dialectic approach, not a name-calling one.

As for the "frummie" comment - if it offended you or anyone else, I apologize. I was not of the understanding that this was a slur. I thought frum meant religious - I have definitely heard people refer to themselves and others as "frum", and if that's the case, I am merely using the plural - it seems you are being hypersensitive.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:44:00 AM  
Anonymous gross said...

Your Hutner lauding - and earlier Pino reference ;) - make you shmeck Chaim Berlinish. Although I'm a big fan of yours, the R' Hutner praise is a little over the top. Perhaps I can't get over his selfish, insolent behavior during the infamous highjacking incident decades ago. Besides look at what Chaim Berlin stands for today...feh!

Sunday, July 31, 2005 5:39:00 AM  
Anonymous Amshinover said...


If you don't know that frummie is a pejorative, it just proves my point that you have a lot to learn regarding the frum community. This lack of knowledge is further demonstrated by your ignorance with respect to the status of lakewood in the frum community.

So again, Rambam, Ramban, Ramchal etc are held in high esteem not necessarily for the beauty or eloquance of their prose, rather it is because their writings were penned from one well versed in the subject matter.

So before you render any opinion or comment, or before you mock other people (such as "frummies" or "canonist") you would come off as less of a fool if you knew a bit about what you were saying or the people you are knocking.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Unorthodox- stop spewing your shit

Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:43:00 AM  
Anonymous sechel said...

why do you state 'the sons are idiots.'

Sunday, July 31, 2005 12:18:00 PM  
Blogger Rachack said...

because he likes to say Loshon HaRa about the Gedolei HaDor?

Sunday, July 31, 2005 12:49:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Yeshiva Bachur is clueless.
He saw personally that RAK & RYH got along.
They tolerated each other,period.
"I am on the inside."
Whatever info. is on my blog is FACT not speculation or appearances.
It is Jewish history,regardless of whether people like it or not.
To all the other people who call me names because I expose their CULT LEADERS,I say too bad.
Go drink some Kool-Aid,while your leaders are having champagne and laughing all the way to the bank on their way to HELL.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philly has an English department. How does this fit in with RAK's philosophy?

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:03:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Although you are right about Hutner's behavior,(you got that from one of my posts),I agreed wholeheartedly with his derech hachaim.
He went to the University of Berlin because he wanted to be able to understand the many worlds outside of the yeshiva.
He was no hypocrite.He wanted his talmidim to use their individual kishronos to maximize their abilities in achieving success in life.
He was far from perfect, regardless of what Art Scroll may one day say about him.(probably nothing, because he went to college, nebach)
R'Yakov Kaminetzky was very far from perfect although Art Scroll canonized him.
Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:13:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I deleted my post,ONLY because I made a spelling error.
Columbia University was mispelled,YOU IGNORAMUS!

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:17:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Philly had an English department because R'Yakov insisted that they have one, much to the chagrin of RAK.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:20:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

I don't understand this constant attack on those of us who some of you perceive "write well" as if this is unacceptable.

I was born here. I am, on one side, a 5th generation American. Most of my ancestors (except 1)have been here since the 19th century.

How else would I possibly write?

Do you hate this country so much that you revile those Jews who are fluent in its language?

I keep seeing this accusation hurled (I admit, I didn't know about this on either - you are correct, Amshinover, there is much I don't know about the ultra-Orthodox), so I guess there is such a school of thought. In fact, A friend of mine who was a Baal Tsuvah started using "mammish" in place of numerous adjectives. Why is that preferable to speaking normally?

Where, in Judaism, does it forbid or discourage fluency in non-Jewish languages?

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:24:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I called them imbeciles,you know why?

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:25:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


I referenced you again on my last pst - hope that's cool.


Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:30:00 PM  
Anonymous sechel said...

Please give me facts.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:51:00 PM  
Blogger Rachack said...

DK, the attacks are against those who try to use their proficency in English as an argument against arguments of substance. For example, instead of responding to the issues of the opposite side, they merely point out that the opposite side misspelled a word or phrase or was grammatically out of syntax and thereby ignore the actual content of the arguments made.

UO, first of all, misspelling one phrase is not grounds for deleteing a whole long post, you've made plenty of typos and never deleted those posts/comments. Second, if you only deleted it because of a typo, then why did you not re-post it after you fixed the typo? It must be that you didn't delete it because of the typo, but rather because you realized how stupid the words coming out of your computer were so you "rescinded" them by deleting your comment and then when you were "figured out" you try to make me look stupid by calling my an ignoramus, which ocming from you is a compliment, because now I'm in good company with all the other great people that you called ignoramuses.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:55:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Don't let the whackos make you feel bad because you read and write English properly.
They were sold a bill of goods,and they will be stuck with JEWNGLISH forever.
So I say to them;

Ven you kent slip at nite,tink abot de behaimas dat told yuu Hashem vill give you parnusa if yoo loin more toira insted of gettting a job,chas v'shulem.
meybe send your bills to kotler,svei and smiley shmuel,
i em sure dey pay de bills fer you.
kip making more babies,dat's a good ting,and mek sure dey chas v'shulem do not loin to rite and read.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:55:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Today is Sunday.
Do you need more facts?

Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:58:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Don't BS us about the importance of Lakewood.
Like any other cult,their time will be up,and all you suckers will be left looking like the idiots you are.
Why don't you get the baalei batim to do a financial audit?
Afraid of what you may find?
Do an audit,and call me in the morning you fool!

Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:04:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

You are a PUTZ with a capital P.

When the establishment of morons congregate for their briefing from the president,please be certain to do a jig around your gedolim pictures on your wall.

BTW I am missing from my gedolim collection,your photo.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:13:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Appreciate the link.
The more people are aware of the scam artists the better.
Maybe one day soon,Judaism will be recaptured and restored to the original,unadulterated beauty it was intended to be.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Chaim Berliner said...

Just to give an accurate date for R'Shneur Kotlers passing:1982 On 'gimmel tammuz' 12 years later the Lubavitcher Rebbe passed on on the same hebrew date.(or was concealed, according to others)
Though you are very harsh with R'SHNEUR, you obviously did not know him personally.He was a big 'mentsch' by all accounts and by this I'm alluding to his fine personal traits. You unfairly portray him as not a talmid chochom of stature.This is totally untrue.You are however right that he could not be compared to his father R'Aharon and grandfather R'Isser Zalman Meltzer.So what?He was a first class talmid chochom and mentsch.Under his leadership Lakewood took off to become the premier yeshiva in the world.
Small note:Rabbi Ruderman was a cousin of R Ahron Kotler(their wives were cousins)I have never heard that they did not get along.
Another small note:The poster RACHAK is a bright young fellow who is only 17 or 18 (from his blog, he also does not hide behind anonymity like you do)stop bullying him.Unless you think picking on young kids strengthens your 'case'

Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:43:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Chaim Berliner,

In comparison to the great tamidei chachomim in Lakewood at the time of RAK's ptirah,Shneur was a lightweight.
He was a big mentsch, I never said otherwise.

Lakewood grew under Shneur's WATCH not leadership,he was almost never in the yeshiva.

He was either at the Port Of Authority bus terminal in the early days, or in a car driving around fundraising.

He had no chiddushei Torah of his own,and repeated his father's and zeide's.

My point is that he should not have become rosh yeshiva just because he was RAK's son.

Yeshivas belong to the klal and the klal should determine who is the most qualified person to be the rosh yeshivah.
In Shneur's case, his mother made that decision.

The geistzeit at that time was such that Lakewood would have become a huge organization because of the sheer numbers of baby boomers and an ideology that worked ,in spite of the cultish undertone.
Like all cults,they are emotional decisions not rational ones.

BTW,not to say, that kids always look for what they deem as an easy way out.

I do not know Rachak.Some kids are mature and some adults are fools.
I do not discriminate,an idiot is an idiot,regardless of how old or young they are.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 3:13:00 PM  
Blogger Rachack said...

So now I am an idiot, putz, and ignoramus?

Sunday, July 31, 2005 4:11:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Don't feel too bad,you have alot of company!

Sunday, July 31, 2005 4:26:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

I don't know, UO - this Rachak kid seems okay to me. Especially for his age!! I checked out his site - he is definitely a very bright young man who will do well in whatever he does.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 4:58:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

G-D bless him.
Whatever his age,he is clueless to the fraud that is rampant in the yeshiva world.
All my facts are checked and rechecked.
David, don't you notice other than calling names,not one post disputed the actual content?

Sunday, July 31, 2005 5:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Lakewood Jew said...


Rachack said...
So now I am an idiot, putz, and ignoramus?

Un-Orthodox Jew said...
Don't feel too bad,you have alot of company!


Your true colors are showing. When you have to resort to name calling, it becomes clear that factual basis for your argument are fallacious and you lose your audience. I'll grant you this much, while you've demonstrated that you don't know what you are talking about, since I break out in laugther when reading your post, you may wish to consider going into Jackie Mason's line, The Yeshiva world accoring to ME!

Sunday, July 31, 2005 5:12:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Lakewood Jew,
You laugh,while Hashem cries!

Sunday, July 31, 2005 6:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Curious said...

"Perhaps I can't get over his selfish, insolent behavior during the infamous highjacking incident decades ago"

Can you give us some details about R' Hutner's behavior during that incident. I have never heard anything negative.

Sunday, July 31, 2005 7:19:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

The story goes like this: When everyone on the plane feared for their lives and turned to him for help, he did not reassure them as he should've. Instead, he ignored everyone and was concerned only for his manuscripts and the choice of beverage served to him by the terrorists. I think he was upset they served him Coke - or was it Pepsi...?

Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:26:00 PM  
Blogger Rachack said...

gross, was that a joke?

Monday, August 01, 2005 1:25:00 AM  
Anonymous gross said...



Monday, August 01, 2005 10:39:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Maybe in that situation he was doing the best thing he could, staying low-key - to assure everyone would have been foolhardy, perhaps. So to, to take a visible leadership position under such circumstances would have been counter-productive.

Monday, August 01, 2005 11:57:00 AM  
Anonymous gross said...


No, that's not the case. I know first hand from a close talmid of his who did not deny the story. He wouldn't have bitc**d about his manuscripts and soda if he wished to stay low-key.

Monday, August 01, 2005 12:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

r hutner NEVER went to U. of Berlin.

Monday, August 01, 2005 1:13:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

It seems U of Berlin was a really major center for future Orthodox leaders.

Not only R. Hutner, but the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and of course, The Rav (a.k.a. J.B.)

UO - what inspired Rabbi Ruderman to take a pro-college stand?

Monday, August 01, 2005 1:32:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

According to talmidim of R'Ruderman, he had a broad understanding of the needs of the American bochur.

He obviously understood that only a small minority were capable of staying exclusively in the Torah world, as was the case in pre-war Europe.

This Lakewood cult ,where kollel for life for all, is an American invention.

Monday, August 01, 2005 3:00:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Do a google search on Yitzchok Hutner,would ya?

Monday, August 01, 2005 3:02:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I try not to talk about the dead.

Some people try to explain away Hutner's behavior at the hijacking, of a scared old man.

I personally do not buy it.

People were desperate for comfort and leadership, he refused to talk to anyone.
I spent a Shabbos with a couple that survived the hijacking, they were aghast at the behavior of Hutner ,his daughter and son in-law, Yonason David.

They busied themselves with Hutner's creature comforts, like food & drink.
They refused any passenger access to him.
They managed to convince the terrorists, that is was in their interests to make sure no harm came to him.
And on and on.

Monday, August 01, 2005 3:11:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

I don't mean to talk about the dead either, but R' hutner behaved like a Rebbe.

Chaim Berlin is the epitome of artifical Judaism. This Chaim Berlin version had to start somewhere.

As a side note, the current leadership is a JOKE. As I write, I am reminded of the last time I attended the annual Purim Mesibah (on Shushan Purim - don't forget how cool they are)and I was appalled at the fact that they hired big black bouncers (like a strip club!) to make certain that nobody entering the premises was dressed in a Purim Costume. I'm not even talking about a bunny rabbit head but if someone was wearing festive colorful pants, entry was DENIED!!

Inside, the "security" was having a blast terrorizing "the little jew boys" and patting them down to check if they had any wine on them.


Monday, August 01, 2005 3:40:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Are Chaim Berlin boys officially allowed to attend college?

Monday, August 01, 2005 5:37:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Officially,it is frowned upon,but nobody pays any attention to Santa Claus.

Monday, August 01, 2005 7:55:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


Hutner was a character, but a smart one.

He was rough and tough, and did have a rather normal world view for the American kid.

He encouraged college for many of his good guys, and took an interest in his talmidim's well being.

Not like today's whatever you call em..., they couldn't give a you know what.

Aron Schachter is as close to a retard you can be but still resemble a normal person.

Fruchthandler does a great job covering for him.

He bet on the wrong horse.

Schachter is too busy smiling for the cameras, as that yeshiva goes to hell.

Monday, August 01, 2005 8:03:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

I agree; he has to look away from those who attend college because he wouldn't have a yeshiva otherwise. Shechter is worthless and couldn't give a rat's ass about his talmidim. He tries to intimidate but they all know he's a loser and his son is one too - it's just that many won't admit it.

Monday, August 01, 2005 8:10:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Hey Gross,

You were right about Hutner wanting to be a Rebbe;he donned a spudik to get just that right look, to create some sort of mystery about himself.

He did try to emulate his buddy from the university, MR. MOSHIACH!

Monday, August 01, 2005 8:21:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

I have read in Rabbi Avi Shafran's writings that he feels frummies (no offense anyone, but you know who I mean) should take secular studies more seriously.

Is anyone else in the blackhat world so prominent that is so publicly outspoken on this issue?

Also - what is the political difference between the Agudah and the yeshiva world? Is there one?

Also - Thanks for tolerating all my questions UO - and Gross too.

Monday, August 01, 2005 11:20:00 PM  
Anonymous chaim berliner said...

I have to laugh at some of the misinformation about Chaim Berlin.
The yeshiva is doing very well, it's beis medrash, probably the largest in Brooklyn for a yeshiva at least,is full of boys studying all day and a nice portion of the night, too.Shabbos has an overflow crowd of mispalelim, the biggest minyan in Flatbush by far.Their elementary school has three classes for every grade, making it one of the largest in Brooklyn(besides Satmar,Bobov etc)etc.THIS Is besides a succesful kolel, mesivtah etc.....In short, Unorthodox, cut down a bit on your phony 'reportage'

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:50:00 AM  
Anonymous chaim berliner said...

BTW, when I said their beis medrash is one of the largest in Brooklyn, I meant the actual size of the building, which is a very beautiful building in and out.
The number of the boys studying in post high school is also a contender to the largest non chasidic yeshiva.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:54:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK, I have been reading these posts and becoming quite confused. If the main yeshiva leaders are a bunch of clowns...then where is the Jewish community to go for leadership? What is the solution, the correct derech?

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:44:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Chaim Berliner,

Yankee Stadium is quite large, probably the largest stadium in New York, and is always full as well, and has real HIGH QUALITY people frequenting the place especially when Madonna is performing.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:00:00 AM  
Blogger Rachack said...

Don't worry, UO himself is also confused. You're in good company.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:01:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Shafran is a spokesman for the Agudah,and personally has no standing as a leader.
He is bright and a centrist.
Agudah is an activist organization, an acts as a spokesgroup for the interests of Orthodox Judaism.
Very much akin to any effective lobbyists in Washington representing special interests.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:09:00 AM  
Anonymous gross said...


You're a bright kid - very bright - but you're still quite young and have a lot to learn. I know, because I've been there, but you see...we're way past the gedolim-pictures-collecting stage - comprende?

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:14:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Depending on where you live and what your particular needs are,R'Hershel Schachter from YU is my choice for the most respectable leader in the tri-state area.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:19:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

You look a little different today.

How dare you pose without the hat?

Are you becoming MODERN, chas vchas vchas v'shalom?

Fast, hit that mikvah!

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger Rachack said...

lol, the picture of Reb Velvol got boring.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:55:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


Did Rabbi Schachter end up also deciding water is no longer kosher without a payoff to the the hecksher filter company?

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 12:11:00 PM  
Blogger Baalabus said...

Rav Hutner never attended U. of Berlin. He came to Berlin intending to enroll, but was dissuaded from it by the Sridei Aish. So writes Hillel Goldberg in his biography. I also heard an alternative explanation of why he came to Berlin but never went to the U.: he could not get in.

Don't believe everything that turns up on Google.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 12:46:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


Goldberg tried to whitewash Hutner's GREAT SIN of going to the University.
While he did not graduate,he took philosophy courses for two years.
How else could he get into the Moetzes,THERE IS NO TSHUVA FOR COLLEGE ATTENDANCE.
Take this info. to the bank!

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:51:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I don't know Schachter's water policy.
You may be able to email YU and get a response.
If you do, please let me know.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 2:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Awesome Blog! I added you to my bookmarks. My site is on corvettes if you would like to come and give me a review!

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 2:39:00 PM  
Blogger Baalabus said...

Un-Orthodox Jew,

Did you read Goldberg's article in Tradition? It was hagiographic, true, but it was far from a whitewash.

Thinking back, I think Goldberg said that R. Hutner spent a summer taking prep. courses in the University's college prep. program, but he never enrolled in the University.

If you are very yeshivish the above should trouble you, that is - there is no whitewash here at all.

Do you have any source that states that RH took classes there fore 2 years?

The Goldberg version was verified independently (i.e., before it was published) by someone close to the Hutners.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:35:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

First he never attended the university.

When that did not work, he attended prep courses there but did not enroll.

BTW when he smoked, DID HE INHALE?

Yes, my information is verified, but I don't want to blow my anonymity.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:47:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Corvettes anonymous,
I will take a look.
Appreciate the comments.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK. I am just a Jewish person reading this blog to learn about Judaism. I am sincerely interested, but can not , for the life of me, understand why attending college could be a sin. I also saw another Orthdox blog that asked the question about how you could possibly have a certain kind of physical relationship with a woman and not see a certain part of her body. The more I read about what you guys think, the more I think you are weird.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is anonymous Jewish person again. Let me elaborate on my question about college. How in the heck is a person supposed to know anything if he or she does not go to college? There are very few jobs available for people who have only a high school education. You can work in labor or low-level sales, like time share sales in third-rate beach communities. ARe you seriously telling me that the religious leaders of Orthdox have said it is a sin against God to go to college? Why????? That sounds simply crazy to me. The people who I know without a college education clean the floors of our office. What is so enobling about that? Well, I am sure you get my point, but I am sincerely puzzled.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:54:00 PM  
Blogger Rachack said...

Anonymous, email me at Rachack(at)futurecities.com

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 6:18:00 PM  
Blogger Baalabus said...

Un-Orthodox Jew,

I am not arguing whether we should consider RH, as he was in 1930, "modern" or not. I am just trying to be accurate and precise with my historical facts.

So, your sources say that he took prep. courses in Berlin for two years?

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 6:37:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...


Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:46:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


It truly hurts me that you are getting a glimpse of the ugly side of Orthodox Judaism.

I can assure you that the main stream, which I hope that you will be part of ,is very normal.

This right wing fanatacism has become an illness infecting mainstream Orthodox Judaism.

The Yeshiva University crowd is where you want to investigate for your personal needs.

I do not know how far along the process you may be, but if you need further guidance,please let me know and I will attempt to assist in any way I can.

YU is definitely a good start, and Aish Hatorah has some real good adult classes, but of late ,has been infiltrated by some right wing propagandists.

I care, please keep us posted.
All the very best.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:10:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


NO PREP NO SHMEP, he was a student at the university.
Get over it!

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:26:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


The point you made about the female body....,
most of the stuff out there about this issue is perverted nonsense.

Please run the name of the rabbi by me that may be helping you in your search for authentic Judaism, and the general area of where you live, I can help you in finding the appropriate person.

Don't get turned off, there is a whole world of good people out there.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

but you seem to hate every single Rabbi except for the Modern Orthodox which is surely a perversion of the genuine Judaism

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:08:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

There is no such a thing as Modern Orthodoxy.

This was created by the right wing.

Centrist Judaism, where you keep ALL the halachos, is my world view.

I learn every single day,and keep all the mitzvos to the best of my abilty.

I support my family and give a great deal to various tzeddakas.

Every part of my life is moral and ethical, no cutting corners.

I do away with all the myths and nonsense that have no root in Torah m'sinai.

I am a very proud, observant Jew and just hate the craziness that has ruined our religion, making it more like a cult, than a religion.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:29:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


A question - obviously I agree with you that the idea that "modern-Orthodox" is a misnomer - something done to them in the same method that the Reform declared normative Judaism "Orthodox". The Haredim emulated their Reform co-religionists on this one.

But wasn't there always a right-wing frummer than the Torah strain?

For instance, The Malbim always found the frummest answer possible to any question- he was way "frummer" than Rashi in his explantions.

Now - "apikorsim" like yourself might prefer Rashi and the Ibn Ezra - but the Malbim, while relatively recent (19th century) existed before the first modern yeshiva, Velozhin, was even around.

Was there anyone like that even before?

Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:37:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

From the time of the Gemora, there were always different thoughts and opinions on all the halachos.

There were technically no "frummer" points of view.

Some schools of thought were viewed as more "stringent" especially when there was no consensus.

Along comes R'Yosef Karo and creates the body of law , the Shulchan aruch, but then we have the various shitas of the Schach and the Taz.

Basically,there is din, and then there is lifnim m'shuras hadin,or more stringent acceptance of certain halachos.

Ultimately, in my not so humble opinion, all the right wing created was a body of minhag, that somehow got confused with halacha.

The holier than thou right, has sullied the authentic halachos by creating hocus pocus nonsense intertwined with their claims of Mesorah.

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...

I love your site. However, I think you need to elaborate more on the fact that most of the "so-called" gedoilim are all petrified of their own shadows. None of them have the balls to come out and speak out about important matters. If Norman Lamm or some other leader from non-black hat world would have behaved the way Hutner behaved in Jordan, the yeshiva world would not stop with the loshon hora. I am very happy that you exposed this story. I haven’t encountered many people who knew this story. The one person who actually knew this story, used it to praise Hutner for his kovad hatora!!! (At best, do I smell geiva?)
This is very similar to the Satmars who have no clue that their Rabbi was saved by the Zionists!!! They use everything to their advantage. Satmar Rabbi held that there can be no “Nes” thru the hands of the wicked. Therefore, 1948, 1967, 1973, Entebbe, etc.. etc.. were not miracles. They were the work of the Satan. However, the fact that he was saved by a real rasha (Kastner) this was a miracle!!!! And the biggest chutzpa is that they actually celebrate that day every year.

Why were all the rabbis scared to expose these lies? If the Lubavicher Rebbe or any other independent thinker such as Rav Kook, would have gotten up and denied G-d’s miracles (like Satmar), their houses would have been burned down and their communities excommunicated. The Yeshiva world would have pronounced strict cherems on anyone belonging to the sect that would dare utter such heresy!!!

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:53:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But how can you ridicule all these holy people who lead the Hareidis in the current generation?

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 1:57:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

R' Hutner was the worst. Just ask all the Morday caf zayin!!

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:02:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm disgusted by this blog site. It is irelevant if all this stuff is true or not, but you're better off opening a sefer, or a good summer read then reading everyone's rantings. No-one is perfect, when you've fixed yourself up , come back ( and then you'll see you'll have no Cheshek for all this diatribe). Hey guys It's the Three weeks !! Now I know what Sinas Chinam is.
Un-orthodox you cannot be Leshaym Shomayim as long as you hide behind a blog site. If you were for real you would'nt care if people knew who you were. As a matter of fact you would be proud.

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:13:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A mamish major ness occured in Monsey just this week. It was mamish gevaldig. The heilege Roov was in his car with a group of his chasidim when suddenly...whooosh! another car passed them on the left and sped off into the distance. The Roov was so incensed that a stamme Yid would zoom by and pass the Rebbe on the road...such a lack of kavod!! The Roov pronounced a curse on the driver. "That car should turn over and burn and all its occupants should die" said the heilege Roov. The simple chassidim in the car with the roov were shocked. "But rebbe" they pleaded, " maybe the rebbe can find rachmoonis on the stamme Yid that showed no kavod like Avram Aveeni davened for S'dom". The heilege roov was so moved by his simple chassidim's pleas that he said, "That should should takeh NOT burn over and burn.' AND TAKEH THAT IS JUST WHAT HAPPENED!!!
This is proof that the chassidim have nissim galooim even today!!! TAKEH!

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:38:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Am Echad,

How right you are.

Watch for my next blog,which I try to post every motzei

The Yeshiva world has lost it's way being run by stupid old men and heirs of stupid old men.

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 10:59:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Discusted anonymous,

Interesting that you post as anonymous, yet you want me to tell you who I am.
You guys are all the same, full of s...

Anyway, If your kids were being sexually molested, would you not want me to expose the predators?



In matter of fact what about the MITZVAS ASEI M'DORAISA OF HOCHEACH TOCHEACH?



Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My observation is that our kiruv leaders and entrepenurial Torah teachers, from more "modern", to "yeshivish", are enamored of money and pride themselves on their ability to attract wealthy or well-known students, often to the detriment of more humble folk who may be interested in learning. This has been a turn off to this regular middle class person who has attempted to become educated in things Jewish.

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:24:00 AM  
Blogger Rachack said...

I'm far from anonymous, and I agree with Anonymous's idea that you can't be leshaim shomayim if you're being anonymous. If you truly beleive in what you preach, then you shouldn't care if people know who you are and who your sources are.

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:29:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


Of course any teacher or institution that prefers wealthy kids over middle class kids deserves the wrath of the community.

Unfortunately, this money machla has spread all over the place and crosses all of Yiddishkeit.

Raising money for yeshivas is of course necessary, but discriminating against middle class kids is discusting.

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:39:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


Rav Weissmandel would be really upset with you putting his photo with your nonsense,maybe change the photo to Bart Simpson or Mickey Mouse.

You sound irritated today, please have your mommy put the pacifier back in your mouth, and change your dirty diaper.
You sound like you are full of S...

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:45:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


You have hit on something big - class. But my own experience is that the liberal Jewish world is far worse in their classist outlook than the Orthodox - the critical exception is that the Ultra-Orthodox strangely seek to deny their middle class the secular education and skills to maintain their class status.

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:47:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


All worlds are affected to one degree or another.

The Jewish education system should not have been affected the way it is, in terms of the entry policies of kids without means.

After all, ALL JEWISH KIDS should have the right to a good Jewish education.

We have always been known to be an educated people.
On the other hand, money is needed to get quality teachers.

That is why yeshivas need to be run by true tzaddikim, who are capable of walking that fine line.

The right wing keeps spewing their anti education garbage to keep their businesses running.

Imagine Lakewood with two hundred people in their kollel instead of two thousand.
The Kotlers would actually have to take a job.

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The last link posted above this posting takes you to a Christian site.

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 1:30:00 PM  
Blogger Rachack said...

so why did you post it?

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 1:40:00 PM  
Anonymous another anonymous said...

rachak - it is possible for there to be 2 anonymous posters - it is a geeric name!

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:00:00 PM  
Anonymous another anonymous said...


Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


I love your blog. However, I feel that you are way too nice to the yeshivish world. I also think its time to expose more bs about Satmar and Lakewood. I don’t know if anyone has noticed but there is a huge love affair between the two. The biggest common ground is "Koach habitul" The yeshivish world and Satmar have a talent to negate everything except for themselves. They are the roots to the hate against the state of Israel. The sickest part that most Satmars are good people and they don’t really care about their leaders hate for Israel. (The present day leaders are too busy fighting about buildings and busses) On the other hand, the yeshiva world took the Satmar theory to the next level. I think its fair say that more people in yeshiva know about the Satmar “SHITa” than the Satmars themselves. Yet they don’t realize that the Satmar held that anyone that sits in the Knesset or votes in the elections is a “Min” and an “apikores” Therefore, according to Satmar SHITa, all the Jewish leaders, (big and small), including Rav Shach, Rav Elyashiv, Ger Rebbe, Belzer Rebbe, Chaozin Ish, (whomever you chose to follow) etc. etc. were all bad people. This is blatant chutzpa because he basically was mevatel everyone and everything. I am not trying to put down the great things that the satmar rav did. However, why didn’t anyone go against him on this matter? Why did everyone acquiesce to his terrorism?

When attacking a specific group or people, you should start from the top. The rest are all lemmings. In the chasidishe world, everyone except for Lubavich was petrified of the Satmar Rebbe. Even the yeshiva world was scarred of him. Until this day, most of the black hat world is looking over their shoulders to keep the Satmars happy. This is the reason why the rally in Washington D.C. for Israel had such little black hat support. They were all worried about bad “PR” from a sect that is involved in primitive clannish disputes.

I look forward to more exposures of the truth

Keep up the good work

Am Echad

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One effect of the "don't work, stay in Kollel forever" phenomenon which has not yet been discussed is the extreme pressure it places upon middle class working parents whose children remain in kollel well into their working years. It is not uncommon in our circles for the parents of a prospective chassan to expect the parents of the prospective callah to support the young couple for many years after marriage, if not forever. This pressure, experienced most sharply by black hat fathers who believe in learning, is driving men in their late middle age, who should be slowing down and looking forward to a little menucha after many years of work, to work even harder to support the newlyweds and their children in addition to himself and his wife. Often the grandmother has to work as well, in order that the two of them generate enough income to support themselves and the newlyweds. This often extends to multiple pairs of newlyweds. In some cases this unremitting pressure has caused extreme stress and even medical problems for the older man, not to mention shalom bayis problems for the older couple. Is this what we intend to do to our zaydies and bobbies of this generation...drive them into eternal labor and borderline poverty in order to support young healthy couples who prefer kollel to the working world? Is this really what the Torah expects of us? How many years can this go on before it breaks down?

And another problem: what about the daughters of men who have never worked but who learned in kollel well into middle age, getting by on welfare and hand outs..what rosh yeshiva is telling bachurs to marry the daughters of poor shnorring Torah scholars? What is going to happen to these poor girls?

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:02:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

Am Echad,

Very true, very true...

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...

You should all be aware that there is a new site coming to shock the "frum" world. www.thisyeshivaisnotforyou.com will make UO look like a liberal softy. While I do think that UO is doing a great job, I think that harsher truths need to be exposed.

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:19:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Am Echad,

I have a day job, I am not in kollel, and I couldn't find a shmuck that wanted to give me money to take his daughter off his hands.
I looked, but no luck!
Anyway, stay tuned, the best is yet to come!

Thanks for your inspirational words, and interesting comments!

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:21:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Anonymous-Don't Work,Kollel for Life,

I touched on this very important topic in one of my previous blogs, Kollel Fraud.


The other great point you make which is now coming home to roost, is the daughters of "shnorrers" can't find shidduchim.
The amount of damage being done is unbearable!

Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:37:00 PM  
Blogger Rachack said...

Perhaps you can elaborate on this comment you made:http://unorthodoxjew.blogspot.com/2005/07/enemy-within-part-two-evolution-of.html#c112311851989224638

Maybe the reason you are so hostile to the right wing world is because you have a "beef" with them.

Thursday, August 04, 2005 7:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Look, we all have something that we need to improve on. In the mean time, lets work on getting along.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:27:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


Thursday, August 11, 2005 12:46:00 AM  
Anonymous R' Shach said...

Who is using my name in vain? I am in shomayim and I dont like this usage.

Thursday, August 11, 2005 12:50:00 AM  
Anonymous Chezki said...


Please remove the spam posts

Thursday, August 11, 2005 12:51:00 AM  
Blogger Mississippi Fred MacDowell said...

>Rabbi Aron Kotler(RAK), was the first yeshiva head to turn yeshiva education into a movement.
That means he had absolute total control of everything.

R. Hutner had this kind of absolute control in MYRCB as early as the early 1940s.

Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:42:00 AM  
Blogger Mississippi Fred MacDowell said...

>Now - "apikorsim" like yourself might prefer Rashi and the Ibn Ezra - but the Malbim, while relatively recent (19th century) existed before the first modern yeshiva, Velozhin, was even around.

Actually the Malbim was sort of born at exactly the same time as the Volozhiner yeshiva (1800).

Any right-winginess after 1800 can be explained as a reaction to the encroaching modernity. But strictly speaking, was there fanaticism before the 19th, 18th centuries? Well, of course. Judaism is a religion, isn't it?

Thursday, August 11, 2005 2:01:00 PM  
Anonymous colace said...

I randomly found this site as I googled another topic. I do not live in the tri-state area, but understand the discussion. If you can give me some insight as to when and how you came up with this realization. I also would like to know if there is evidence to the fact that the Kotlers are creaming off the money that you claim they are.

Thursday, September 29, 2005 11:10:00 PM  
Anonymous colace said...

I'm sorry I addressed you incorrectly, UO rather thatn OU

Thursday, September 29, 2005 11:12:00 PM  
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Sunday, October 16, 2005 5:22:00 PM  
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Wednesday, October 26, 2005 8:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the Un-orthodox jew who wrote this article.
Things are definitly not perfect ,and people do wrong, but to talk about rav Moshe anfd Rav.Yaakv z;tzal like that is disgusting and disttasteful to say the least. You mentioned about the what the chofetz chaim reprsented,/well ,the chofetz chaim would be sick from the way you speak about other jews and limud toah. Yes, there most certainly are jews that use learning as a front ,but that is not to be said for everybody. The problem here is not those who chosse to sit and learn ,whether their intentions are true or not, but rahter the problem is with their middos,including you!!!you seem to be angry with someone or something. REMEMBER, it is torah learning that helps keep the world going-/Torah ,Avodah,v'gemilus Chasadim -Remember that?!G-d knows who is true and not , and he jas his cheshbonos, so stop trying to play ;Din V;dayan',and worry more what you represent ,and not other's ,as after 120 , Hashem will ask you about what you DID or DIDN't DO to add to the world, your actions, not others. 'Kol yisrael areivim zeh lazeh' ,and FIRST , we have to watch our own behavior-think about yours!!!

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 2:37:00 AM  
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Tuesday, November 22, 2005 11:33:00 PM  
Anonymous Chaimyankelataljazeeradotcom said...

Un-Orthodox and Un-truthful:

>>What made RAK's idea a bit more novel was his concept of Torah Lishma.That meant that his yeshiva was to enroll anyone that wanted to learn Torah exclusively, there was not to be any other considerations about secular education or any education that would teach one a parnassah..etc.outside the world of Torah.<<

And what exactly were the secular studies in all the chasidisha yeshivas? Nitra was the only Chasidisha Yeshiva that discussed work/study agricultural settlement, but it never panned out. I don't know if you're oblivious to the facts or prefer to be a pathological liar, but your statements have no basis in reality.

>>"A historical note of interest. None of the direct descendants of the first Lubavitcher Rebbe, R' Shneur Zalman, are frum.<<

Like the Tchebeiner Rosh Yeshiva in Yerushalyim? A direct male descendant from the Ba'al HaTanya?
There are 4 frum Schneersons in the Brooklyn phone book alone, not counting the Rebbe's phone #s. Not to mention the Lubavitch Schneersons of Eretz Yisroel.
Open a phone book the next time you're in Kfar Chabad, If you know how to read Hebrew.

>>In matter of fact one of his sons converted to Catholicism."<<

Would that be Dov Ber, Chaim Avraham or Moshe?

All the Schneersons are related. There may be frei ones, but there are plenty of frum ones, as well as descendants with other surnames. But don't let me confuse you with the facts. You have a constitutional right to make yourself look stupid. Don't let me stop you.

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:00:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do You Have Any Information Regarding The Jewish
Whistle Blower?

Please assist at www.persuasion-university.com

Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:29:00 AM  
Anonymous Unorthodox Jew said...

Hey, you fucking piece of shit. I am glad you were exposed. Everyone knows who you are. And you will be running away from all the worthless cesspool of shit that you wrote for the rest of your fucking waste of a life. If only you could kill yourself now.

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:11:00 PM  

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