Tuesday, July 12, 2005

Jews Without Borders

No,I do not mean Jewish doctors,I am talking about ALL Jews.

We have no physical borders,and certainly we should not develop intellectual borders either.

The Charedim or extreme right wing of Judaism does NOT represent Yiddishkeit.They would have you stop thinking,questioning or engage in any conversation that could create any doubt at all to THEIR opinions.
They differ from the times of the Rishonim and the previous or last Achronim.(some would say it stopped at the Chazon Ish).All Jews were then able to engage in intelligent dialogue.

I have approximate numbers that will authenticate my claim.

There are approximately twelve million Jews worldwide.
About half of them are traditional Jews with no religious affiliation whatsoever.
The other six million are composed of one and a half million observant(all degrees and levels of Torah observance)or Orthodox,the balance represent the secular Jews.

Which means at best, Orthodoxy represents less than ten percent of all Jews alive today.

The Charedi sector according to most sociologists, represents at best a half million people.

Their Torah does not represent the majority of Orthodox Jews.

They are pure literalists.Therefore their rabbonim decide for them what they are permitted to think.
This has become extremely dangerous because their gedolim are absolutely out of touch with all reality outside their daled amos of their chadorim.

Their scientific knowledge is non existent.

Well,why should we care?
Because,like during the times of Shabsi Tzvi,more Jews left Judaism when they discovered he was a fraud, than at the time of the Crusades.
Firstly,their practice of Judaism is Rabbinic Judaism,the way the Tanaaim & Amoriim interpreted the written Torah.

How else could anyone explain all the plugtas,differences of positions, if Moshe handed them the Mesorah as G-D gave it to him?Could it be that G-D himself was not quite sure if we are to pasken like Bais Shammai or Bais Hillel?

The fact is that probably in twenty years or less,their numbers will start shrinking.
Truth be told that we don't know the real numbers,because their dress conceals their ideology,if they have any.
It's only a matter of time until the youth of today,who have access to the outside world, start thinking for themselves without being brow beaten to intellectual death.

How long will it take for the Chassidim to figure out that the Gerrer Rebbe,who predicted that Moshiach will be here in a year or two,is hallucinating and suffering from delusional visions of self grandeur?
He will be proven a Rasha gamur for behaving like a behaima.He is THE Kofer! What an absolute, authentic PUTZ! The original!

How long will it take for even the Chabad group to figure out that their guy was whacked?

Time is on our side.

The people that contribute to society at large,the people that can support themselves and their families, they are the LIGHT UNTO THE NATIONS.
The people that have supported the Charedi jibberish, will come to their senses and realize that they have been duped.


Blogger David Kelsey said...


Most of the specific examples you bring are from the Hassidim, bless their beaver-headed souls.

But don't you think they are the reason the Misnagdim, after fighting a brave resistence to these "outside forces", if you will, in fact adopted stringencies and anti-intellectual defenses that weren't so dominant and universal before?

Isn't Modern-Orthodoxy really closer to what Orthodoxy used to be? At least, in terms of dealing and somewhat engaging the secular world around them while staying true Jews?

Aren't they (the chassidim) the reason?

Without them, perhaps Orthodoxy would not have been so quiescent fundamentalist.

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Normal Chassid said...

Un Orthodox,

You have not added anything that you didn't mention before?

Is it a slow nes day that you have to resort to some more spewing of hatred?

Thursday, July 14, 2005 12:12:00 AM  
Anonymous heshy said...

To be clear, you are the one that is regressing in time. Your mode of thinking, challenging authentic torah judaism in the face of the "current" dogma was prevelant as far back as centuries ago. Yet its adherents have failed to maintain any relationship wiht judaism. The only true strain that has survived are the frum ones. The grandchildren of those whose thinking you blindly follow and idolize have either married goyim or converted themselves. You can dig your head in the sand, or face reality.

Thursday, July 14, 2005 12:16:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Correct you are.
The Vilna Gaon was so against the Chassidic movement because they INVENTED a non sense that had nothing to do with Judaism.
The MO,really just plain Orthodox Jews,are the ones that always believed in following the precepts of the Torah without sixteenth century clothing and Jesus like ideas of trinity;ie;G-d,Rebbe,& kvittlach(holy spirit like ).

Heshy is so wrong in comparing us with the Reform etc...
We are fully Torah observant Jews and extremely well learned without the BS espoused by the shmucks who bleed their followers so they can live in a MAKE BELIEVE KINGDOM OF GOD.

They are the NON FRUM,the KOFRIM, if they believe the way to Hashem is through them or through their non Jewish ideas.

Heshy,you mean well but you were brainwashed.

Normal Chassid,
Just more proof to my thesis that the idiots are running around in their underwear acting like retards.

Thursday, July 14, 2005 9:01:00 AM  
Anonymous a dissenting voice said...

I do not think its possible to assert in good faith that the modern orthodox are in any way as learned as religious jews. The average family in teaneck does not know jack. Contrary to your bitter and often jaded way of looking at frum jews, there is simply more scholarship there.

This is not to say there is nothing good about modern orthodoxy. Its just that torah is not one of them.

Chazal did not interpret the torah. See the ritva on rosh hashana daf 15. Oh, and he was a rishon, not some nut from these days and ages, as you may otherwise proclaim.

The modern orthodox movement was borne out of a vacume, its treife ideas try to justify a movement that allows jews to be like goyim, while manipulating the words of the torah to seem as though they are acting in accordance with it. Their INTERPRERATIONS apply holloywood's ideas into our religion. Nothing could be further from the truth. If there is a rasha to be named, it is morally bankrupt individuals like norman lamm who have distorted Torah to justify his areligious lifestyle and proclaim hefkeirus for all those willing to stop thinking and drink his poison. His followers are the proverbial sheep: can there be any less thinking than by one who does not learn and only follows the teachings of the unlearned?

Generalizations should not be made. There are some good ones out there--maybe even a lot of people--who learn. But you have to be in a pretty deep level of denial to compare the scholarship emerging from the modern orthodox institutions with the nearly 100 sforim published every year by students at bmg.

I don't care how angry you are, how hard your mommy hurt you, or how badly you want out of our religion, but the modern orthodox movement is far from the real thing. It has no straight hashkafa, no desire to grow or learn, and basically just an infanitle hatred for the more religious that smacks of Rabbeinu Yonah's well known proclamation: just as a subject in a kingdom who despises others for serving his king better than him is considered a hater of his king, so to one who hates another for serving Hashem better than him is a sonei Hashem. You don't know anything about the frum world. You are not part of it. And you have no right to critique that which you don't know--not merely on a moral level, but on an intelligent level: no straight thinking person would dwell and talk about something he simply knows nothing about. You are free to join, but it can hardly be called useful to encourage like minded people like yourself to engage in such unproductive bashing.

This is not to say that there are no imperfections--this world is imperfect. But to identify the shvach as the best and the best of the shvach is simply absolute and utter stupidity.

I wish you luck in your search for truth.

Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:31:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Dear Dissenting,
Your post for the most part is fairly intelligent,but your basic premise is FALSE.
Firstly,MO was named so,just to separate ourselves from the other guys.

ALL OF US WERE JUST PLAIN ORTHODOX until the Baal Shem came along.

You try real hard to put the original orthodox in a neatly packaged box,but we are immensely diversified and DO NOT FOLLOW ANY PERSON, WE FOLLOW THE TORAH!

In defense of YU and Rabbi Norman Lamm,yes he is different than you,he has done a phenomenal amount of good!

You are the ones pasuling an entire group of people who dedicate their lives to enhancing Yiddishkeit as they truly believe it should be practiced.

Nothing is perfect,but they do not live in palaces.YU is a public institution controlled by a board,and they don't have any of the public's real estate in their own individual names,and do not SIGN THEIR OWN CHECKS!

As far as me personally,I am all too familiar with the Charedi world,that is why I CAN SAFELY SPEAK WITH TRUTH AND AUTHORITY!

For every BMG Jew,there are atleast ten of us who have long forgotten what those guys will never learn.
I know what I am talking about.

If Grama's work of garbage is looked at as a scholarly work,you are more naive than I thought.

I have found the truth,and the Charedi perversion is not it.

Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:21:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Norman Lamm did no good, or at least not more than any other ordinary am haaretz. The comments you make about modern orthodoxy even remotely resembling Judaism causes me to question your honesty. Not to mention, "for every BMG Jew,there are atleast ten of us who have long forgotten what those guys will never learn." or your reference to Lamm and his sheep as Choshen Mishpat and Orach Chaim Jews.

You are the one guilty of putting every frum jew into one mold. I am just stating that those who suscribe to MO are generally not learned, regardless of your comments, which I am quite sure you yourself know to be entirely untrue.

And if you want to talk about garabge open up the MO forms of Torah.

Oh right, there are none.

Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As to that nonsense about you knowing everything about the charedi world: come on; sit down and shut up. If you'd like, I will gladly educate you.

Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:29:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

I find it telling that so many of the comments left on Un-Orthodox Jew's comment section by obviously ultra-Orthodox posters feel the need to attack him personally.

Do you have know ideological defenses? Or is it a lack of English?

Because it reeks of weakness somewhere.

And consistently.

Thursday, July 14, 2005 2:09:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

That's the best they can do.

We have the same Torah without the hocus pocus nonsense.

Thousands of G-D fearing and highly Torah educated Jews that have gone into rabbanus,business and into society at larger under Rabbi Lamm's leadership at YU.

You don't have to like him or agree with his ideology to admit to his life long dedication to the furtherance of Jewish education.

Thursday, July 14, 2005 2:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I discussed my points on an entirely idealogical bases. My lesser idealogical references were made in response to Un-orthodox's inept ad hominum retorts.

Un-orthodox is clearly not familiar with the charedi scene. I was requesting that he decline from casting such strongly nagative and untrue generalizations on such hetergenous society. Instead, he responded with even more off color remarks that fail to comport with even the barest modicum of reality and common sense. I find it somewhat ironic that you seem to find his delusional rantings so persuasive, without even trying to keep an open mind for another view. This is particularly consternating as you seem more intent in unconvering lies than discovering truth.

If you could present Norman Lamm so nobly, the same can be done for Margolis. Or anyone else, for that matter. Regardless of his noble intent (if you wish to infer it), not all the things he did yielded noble results. You are just too much of an idealogue, and far too jaded to admit when you are wrong.

I like your blog bacause I know you have a discerning mind, and a noble heart. I would love to engage in productive dialogue with you to discuss some of the issues you have with respect to judaism in general and how jews are supposed to act in particular. In such discussion, however, there is no need for personal attacks, nor is is anyway respectable to resort to exaggeration or complete dishonesty.

I will continue responding, but I would appreciate if you could utilize more precision, sense, self respect, and kavod hatorah, into the issues you wish to express.

Thursday, July 14, 2005 2:58:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

My intent is to present only the facts.
You make a fair point re;the Lamm vs Margolis issue from your perspective,because you believe I am claiming the end justifies the means.You are wrong,that is NOT what I am saying,and it does NOT.

Margolis's BUSINESS is a School,the school is the means he used fraudulently to establish his business.He could have been a garbage collector(he has collected some garbage on his staff)but he chose school.Stay with me,there is a dakus I want you to understand.

If you know him at all,he is an absolute minuvel.For him to be a head of a yeshiva(charedi to boot) is a chilul Hashem.He is BUGSY SIEGEL,AL CAPONE and MEYER LANSKY combined into one.

Lamm is one dedicated person,although you do not respect his ideology.That is your right,but Lamm has no hidden agenda and certainly no one ever accused him of being a scoundrel,thief and harborer of a child molester.

We are a bit off track.
My claim is clear.
Orthodox Judaism has been hijacked!
It has become a business,and the guys running the show are either way too old or out of touch,or are outright charlatans and profiteers.

The Israeli gedolim DO NOT HAVE A CLUE.


They can not read english and do not have any idea of what is really going on with the kids with the big boy black hats.


The kids are play acting with their frumness.
As soon as they get into the real world,they lose it.
Why not prepare them for this eventuality?
There is no room for outsiders in chinuch.
Either they get a meaningless job or wind up sitting on their behinds under the guise of Kollel.
Than they breed a whole new generation of shnorrers.

Unless you are deaf,dumb and blind(you don't appear to be),you know I am right.

Thursday, July 14, 2005 4:52:00 PM  
Blogger Shlomo said...

Zzzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzz Zzzzzzz Zzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzz Zzzzzz Zzzz Zzzzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzzz Zzzzzzz Zzzzzzz Zzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzz. More of the same immature, misinformed garbage. I think you need to learn Mussar!

Friday, July 15, 2005 12:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Do you argue with any maverick blogger that has a differing opinion? You do sound like a 6th grade rebbe - asswipe

Friday, July 15, 2005 1:20:00 AM  
Anonymous A Dissenting Voice said...

Easy with the language. I addressed substantive ideas without resorting to personal attacks. I appreciate the way the Un-Orthodox Jew responded--respectfully and intelligently--he could teach you a thing or two about being a mentsch.

Friday, July 15, 2005 10:24:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you, Un-Orthodox Jew.

There is truth to what you said, though I would not assign the thrust of your analysis with such overarching generality.

I suppose there are a significant amount of words that you and I define differently: Yeshivish, Learning, Frum, Modern Orthodox, to name a few. I think if you would define them, we would probably conclude that you and I do not disagree on very few and discrete issues.

I do not know the underpinnings and currents that gave rise to Lamm's rise to fame. I have no way of knowing who he is, what he did, and how he became the force he is today. The truth is, the Jewish world has had layleaders in the past--Mike Tress for one--who achieved great things for the Klal. As you correctly inferred, I do not agree with some of his ideas. But I not familiar with what he has done over his life, either. Hence I will not disparage him. My point is that I cannot state with any level of certitude that all Yeshivos are businesses. I could cite some yeshivos (though not neccessarily all Yeshivish Yeshivos) that are not run as businesses, per se (though some business decisions may be made as a coincidence--similar to the decision surrounding the placement of the new Dean of YU): Torah V'Daas, Mekor Chaim, Yeshiva of Far Rockaway, Sho'r Yashuv, Stamford, Darchei Torah, Philly, South Fallsburg, Passaic, Porth Amboy, Patterson, to name a few.

It is, admittedly, very difficult to secure a maggid shiur position in any yeshiva. It is also difficult and competitive to be a proffessor of law. The point is that people are still going to law school in pursuit of achieving positions in academia, and so are bright, hard-working individuals reaching for the stars in the Yeshiva world. It starts like any other job--at the bottom--but with perseverence, one can get to the top if he is qualified. (No greats started at the top, because none of them are born great). Not everyone is made to be a professor, nor is everyone made to be a maggid shiur. But there is nothing wrong with working to achieve goals, and associating oneself with good people.

The issue with respect to the transition proceess in the event one must leave the daled ammos of his Yeshiva is another issue. I have been privileged to know several very special individuals who, upon leaving Yeshiva so that they can tend to their family needs, have achieved prominence as attorneys, accountants, presidents of their own companies, and more, without forfeiting their frumkeit or commitment to achievie (and reaching success in ultimately achieiving) very significant and impressive feats in the learning and devotion to Hashem. Qualified, intelligent people generally make it. As for individuals who are not so inclined, I don't have any statistics that can confirm that they do any worse than modern orthodox individuals with similar intellectual or occupational dispositions. Yes, some individual still ensconced in the daled amus of the Yeshiva world may look down at them, but no good guy would say that about one who is still learning well--so who really cares about what those guys say, anyway? There are losers wherever your turn. It is folly to expect human nature to change where is refuses to reside and saturate itself within Torah.

A common refrain that I hear regarding Yeshiva secular educations is that students are very disrespectful to their teachers. But the reality is that such is the price of educating adolescent boys. Not every adolescen boy is going to be perfectly respectful at all times around the clock. I am sure every teacher at any given public or parochial school can complain with equal vigor about the hardships they experience when teaching boys from the ages 13-17. Somehow, however, the average Jewish family is able to sustain its needs, independent of others--regardless of his high school background (I attribute this to Hashgacha, I think we all, in some way or another, do). The reality is that I think we can all smile back on our childhood days and acknowledge that high school education, in the long run, means very, very little. Hence I don't look at that taana as specially meaningful or substantive.

People can educate themselves at any level or time. And the majority of the kollel world above 30 is not comprised or burned out, helplessly innane individuals without common sense, intelligence, scruples or the human desire to achieve and succeed in his life.

While I agree that some of the politics surrounding the world of rabbonus can lead one to look askance at his faith and question who he really is and what he is meant to do in this world, such an inquiry should not neccessarily yield to the conclusion that the ethos underlying a world where even some charlatans and inept individuals run with seemingly unchecked authority is incorrect.

Every system has its faults. And all we can really do about it in the end is set, by our personal example, a source of inspiration and solace to all when it is needed.

And if you feel the same way, we really agree on just about everything.

Friday, July 15, 2005 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Your post is a tough act to follow.

Thankyou for your highly intelligent thoughts.

General info.,Rabbi Lamm is the former dean of YU.

Two issues that are of primary importance obviously to both of us are the present leadership and the future of our children.
You are absolutely correct that some of the yeshivas that you named are yeshivas that we should all be proud of.
That goes for their leadership as well,in intent.INTENT is a key word.
Although they may mean well,and may be qualified, even extremely qualified to give shiurim,it does not follow that they are able to give our children the mentoring and the proper derech for the "individual" child.

I am working on a heart rendering blog to address this very issue.

I do take exception to some(not all)of the yeshivas you mentioned.When you start seeing the kids take positions carte blanche,you have to assume(based on history),nepotism.

I am not suggesting perfection in humans.
That does not mean we should not strive for the best and most qualified in all areas of chinuch.
Just because a guy can raise money,even lots of money,SHOULD HE BE A ROSH YESHIVA?
Not of my child!

I have long suggested a lay Vaad for all yeshivas,NOBODY HOME.
They all want to groom,wine & dine their own contributors.
They view it as competition and the best of them are extremely selfish.

The next issue,in brief,is the ability to sustain thousands of families on public funds that are becoming more scarce.

BITACHON...is the buzz word.
What happens to bitachon when there is no money to feed your family.....???

Thanks again.

Friday, July 15, 2005 2:43:00 PM  
Anonymous heshy said...


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Arrangements will also be made with the media, so that appropriate press coverage will be available to allow the commoners and those not on your high scholarly level to follow the debate with the benefit of analysts and experts on the issue.

Please call me at 917 468 484o so that we can arrange for a convenient time for everybody so that we can finally resolve this most important issue.

Monday, July 18, 2005 12:48:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Say when Hesh!

Friday, July 22, 2005 12:44:00 AM  
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