Saturday, August 06, 2005

The Enemy Within-Part Three-Chassidism Is Not Judaism

Make no mistake, Chassidism is not part of authentic Judaism.

In matter of fact it is closer to Christianity than to Judaism.

Orthodox Jews believe that ALL of the principles of Judaism were given to Moshe at Sinai.
The written Torah and the oral Torah were dictated to Moshe by Hashem for the forty days he was at Sinai.

The roots of the Chassidic movement did not begin until the thirteenth century, when Moses De-Leon started the writings of the Zohar.
About three hundred years later, Isaac Luria(ARI) started preaching this mystic garble.
The Ari as he was known, was an enigma.
He purported to preach the thoughts of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, who lived fifteen hundred years earlier.
The problem is that there was no known link of mesorah or chain of events, going back to that time, from RSBY to him or to De-Leon.

Orthodox Jews believe that the Torah m'Sinai was transmitted from father to son, generation after generation, traceable back to Moshe.
The fact that there was no link from the Ari or De-Leon to RSBY, and therefore no link back to Sinai, would eliminate the Zohar or Kabballah from effectively being part of Judaism.

The most we can rationally say about the Zohar, that it was a" theory" of a few people, and no more.

Chassidim, have their entire canon(or myths) based entirely on the writings of the Zohar, and the rantings of an unlearned bal agalah or horse and buggy driver, known as the Baal Shem Tov or the Besht.
The Besht, being the very first Forest Ranger, hanging out with the animals in the forest and talking to the trees, set a precedent for todays rebbes who hang out in their ghettos with their animals.

Tales of the Besht are just that, buba maases, or in english fairy tales .(In Brooklyn we call it unadulterated BS).

The Vilna Gaon called the Besht a heretic and a lunatic, and considered that movement outside of Judaism.

Rabbi Aron Kotler refused to let chassidim into Lakewood. When he ultimately relented under great pressure, he forbade them to wear their shtreimels in the bais medrash.

It is difficult enough for any Jew to really comprehend Torah m'Sinai, but that is emunah; who in their right mind can possibly believe the stupidity of the chassidic nonsense which emanates from an ignoramus?

Imagine if you will, Art Scroll gedolim stories, turning into another branch of Judaism in a few hundred years.

The entire concept of the kabbalistic ten sfiros, the sum total of the sfiros representing Hashem;how far away is that from Christianity, where the Trinity is the sum total of their Divinity?

How far away is the tzaddik or rebbe, who through his holiness, is capable of representing the chassid to Hashem; to "Yushka", who through him only can you reach the Kingdom Of God?

The" coming ressurection" of the Lubavitcher Rebbe demonstrates how far afield of Judaism ALL the chassidic groups have gone.

The Gerrer Rebbe is now assurring his flock, that Moshiach will arrive in the next year or so.
He is a sick, delusional idiot who deserves a good flogging.
Hey, putz, if Moshiach is coming in the next year or so, he surely did not tell an ignoramus like you.
You behaima, stop taking whatever drugs you are on.
When he doesn't come, then what?
You make me sick, feh!

The entire concept of a Jew needing an intemediary to get heard by Hashem was and is a fraud.One should have to dump their entire head down the toilet in shame, if they believe in this apikorsus.

This dveykus garbage, where one should cleave to their rebbe, is the BIGGGEST mentally dysfunctional illness of Chassidism.
Who the hell is this rebbe that he should be cleaved to?
I will tell you who, gangsters.
The Mafia godfathers, also had their underlings cleave to them.
The same type of fear, one physical, one emotional.

How in the world does anyone buy into this?

How ill does one have to be to cleave to a putz without a job?

His ONLY job is screwing you out of your money and independence.
What in the world do you need this parasite for?
Have these scam artists so emotionally paralyzed you, that if you let go of them , you fear divine retribution?

We have watched in horror the goings on among the chassidim.
They have bastardized our faith with their hocus pocus.
Their rebbes are the greatest con artists of the group, bleeding their sheep for whatever, and having them go to jail for their thefts.

Buddhists, Hindus and Scientologists have more credibilty than these groups of peasants.

The original post war rebbes of Satmar and Klausenberg were well intentioned and learned people.
They gave their lives to the klal, and had an honest agenda.One can differ with their world view which I do with vehemence, especially Satmar, but one has to respect their drive to reestablish and rebuild the lives of the remnants of their respective communities.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel, was a brilliant and charismatic figure, who had his own agenda of note.
Unfortunately his movement went awry with sheer insanity, especially the Moshiach movement, which catapaulted his religion into something other than Judaism.
He could have stopped it, either he went crazy in his old age, or worse, he believed it.
Nevertheless, he left an unmatched legacy of chessed and kiruv, that has way surpassed any other chassidic groups.

These three rebbes were legitimate heirs of their respective chassidus, they were talmidei chachomim and sincere people.
They believed in their own brands of Judaism, although it was based on voodoo theories.
The only reason I can somehow tolerate them, is because as human beings they had integrity.
The money they raised, was for their version of what was good for Yiddishkeit.
They were self-sacrificing, and I believe well intentioned, although absolutely wrong in their distinct approaches.
They filled a need at the time, which was to restore sanity to their followers after the war.
They should have discontinued this demented ideology, and embrace Torah true Judaism.
But something weird happens to people when scores of people put them on a pedestal.
Their sense of self gets distorted, and if they become the ultimate authority without anyone to answer to, megalomania sets in.
Absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

The chassidus of today is organized crime, no more.
They,the Mafia, also had big hats, and stole whatever they could.
Every single chassidus today, is corrupt from head to toe.
Their rebbes lead and mislead their idiot followers to a life of frivolity.
Meaningless gatherings, to waiting up all night to get a bracha from the top honcho, is just another con game.
There is no meaning in dancing and swaying with the rebbe.
There is no sense in partaking from his leftover food.
There is no benefit in getting a feel good bracha from these guys.
It is ONE BIG HOAX, and the joke is on you, you demented behaimas.

The present Satmar is composed of a bunch of hoodlums with their rebbe at the helm, and is a shameful example of what went wrong with all these chassidic movements.

Satmar gave birth to the Neturai Karta, the behaimas that met with Arafat, may he drop dead again.
The first Rebbe, unfortunately, was off the wall with his hate of what he called the Medinas Yisroel.
He was the prime mover and shaker, pitting Jew against Jew.I am sure, that his soul is paying the price for this form of terrorism.
For whatever his thoughts on the secular Jews, his hate mongering was the sign of a man who was irrational and worse.
He approved and condoned the open displays of hate from his followers.

The present rebbe, a former stockbroker and a shady one to boot, inherited the job because R' Yoel had no sons.
On the merits of his right to this job, other than being a Teitelbaum, he had none.

There was another Joel Teitelbaum, who was a cousin of the rebbe.
He came over after the war, and called himself the Satmar Rebbe.
He raised money, until his cousin and other people from Satmar came, and put an end to his fraud.
He changed his name to the Kirhauser Rebbe.
He was uncovered to be a KAPO, or a Nazi collaborator, during the war.
In other words, he beat the hell out of fellow Jews and worse.

When one of his kids were doing a shidduch, and the prospective machatunim met, the machatainester fainted on the spot because she recognized him as the kapo that beat her almost to death.No, this shidduch did not take place.

He established a shul, and became a "mover and shaker" in the nursing home business.

He" moved" dead bodies from freezer to freezer, collecting their social security checks in the meanwhile.
The ones that were still alive, he" shaked" whatever money they had out of them, by stealing their mail and bank accounts.

He defrauded the government and every single investor that trusted him.
After all, he was a rebbe!
He should rot in hell!

The Spinka Rebbe was whisked away one Shabbos during davening by the police, he screamed Shabbos, Shabbos!!The people he abused in his nursing homes had nobody to scream to when he abused them, stole their social security checks, and gave them rotten food.
When the old people died, this great tzaddik, may he rot in hell, froze their bodies, to be able to keep collecting the government stipends.
He was part of the notorious Bergman family, or the "Nursing Home Mafia" as described by the New York Times.
Bernard Bergman, Israel Braunstein and Moses Braunstein went to jail.
There is another Braunstein in the news, government auditors are looking into millions of dollars of medicaid money that can not be accounted for from his nursing home.
It's in their blood, they are sick!

Damn these animals; the mitzvah of burying the dead within twenty four hours of death, goes in the garbage when there is money to be stolen. The mitzvah of "escorting the dead" to him meant, escort, "after" all the money was sucked out of the family and the social security number.

His two behaimeshe gangster mamzeirim run Spinka today. Monkeys in black garb.

Hertz Frankel, aka the" Satmar Gonniff" stole tens of millions of dollars throughout his thirty years at Satmar.
The government finally caught up with him, he plea bargained, and stayed out of jail.
Do not tell me that the Rebbe did not know where all these millions came from.

Leib Pinter, the notorious Bnai Torah fraudster, stole millions of dollars for non existent government lunch programs.
Munkascz, Vishnitz, Ger, Belz, Satmar,Skver, Bobov, and all the other midgets with fur hats and long filthy black bathrobes, had a direct hand in this and all other government frauds through Pinter and his cohorts.
Pinter went to jail.
Pinter has been indicted again for mortgage fraud.

He is the "energizer" goniff, he keeps stealing & stealing & stealing.....

When they got caught, these nice guys, rebbes, threw the front men to the dogs.

There was drug money laundering, and drug selling through Bobov.
Maher Reiss went to jail.

The Munkaczer's brother, the Dinover Rebbe, brother in-law of the Vyepoler Rebbe(Frankel's shul in Flatbush), was caught drug smuggling.

But they have pretty shuls and fancy homes.

Every single time records had to be produced, all of a sudden the files somehow got destroyed by fire.

WOW! Hashem certainly created this "nes "so these thieves can keep their businesses going.
"Viheney boar b'aish v'hasneh ukol!", these guys certainly deserved Divine intervention, as Moshe did!This time somehow, Hashem decided that the fire SHOULD destroy the phony records.
Skver,Bobov,Munkascz,Satmar,Gur....all had fire sales.



Shlomo Halberstam, the first misfit of Bobov, landed in New York after the war.He had his butt fired at the first shul that hired him, because he could not learn a blatt G'mora.

This holy genius moved to Crown Heights and ran a kindergarten.
His job was to give the kids candies.I swear this is true, I spoke to one of those" kids."

A few lunatic admirers of this Don Juan, decided to move him to Boro Park.So what that he had no clue about learning.
He made them feel good, what else matters?

He was a master at his game.So what that his father advised his kehilla in Poland not to worry about the Nazis, and assurred them that no harm would come to them.
He was a" holy" man, surely his bracha had G-D's seal of approval.
Well, you know the end of that story.

The "holy" men from Gur and Belz gave the same advice to their followers.
They would do and say anything to hold on to their little kingdoms.
Can you not see that these guys are meaningless people, who without the soap box you put them on would be wagon drivers?

The fight going on at Bobov now for the "malchus," is about money and power, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH G-D.
One guy is a bigger retard than the other.
Take away the real estate and money, they both would be driving cabs.

Years ago, Stoliner chassidim crowned a nine year old kid as their rebbe.
You tell me that these guys are normal.

The Chabad telethon sums up the present day status of that group.

The Rebbe's picture is their avoda zara.You have Christians, Asians, shvartzes, and drug addicts doing the hora around the Rebbe.

Cunin and his family have managed to accumulate one hundred fifty million dollars in real estate, and have ruined people's lives by having the secular courts confiscate any property that housed a "Chabad shul", even though they, the Cunin's, had nothing to do with it. In other words, they became the franchisers for the Chabad name.
The Kentucky Fried Chicken of chassidus, with Cunin as Colonel Sanders.

When a bais din ruled AGAINST Cunin,this shyster, who has free access to first rate attorneys, took it to secular court, AGAINST THE RULING OF THE "CHABAD" BAIS DIN.

This" holy" guy, has a direct line to the Rebbe, and I am sure that is what the Rebbe advised him to do.
Cunin hangs out every month at the kever, midst a whole community of Lubavitchers who are waiting for him to dust himself off and reveal himself.Cunin has got to know something we don't.

A historical note of interest.
None of the direct descendants of the first Lubavitcher Rebbe, R' Shneur Zalman, are frum.In matter of fact one of his sons converted to Catholicism.

The sad part about all of this, because the world today is in such upheavel, people look to other people to make them feel good.
The chances of this mental illness called chassidus to go away any time soon, is not promising.
People are spending billions of dollars on anti-depressants and other types of feel good drugs.
The guys in the black coats are their Opium.

If you will continue to rely on people for all that is wrong in your life, why not put true ehrliche Yiden at the helm.
Why settle for ignoramuses and thieves?
Do away with these purveyors of idiotic dogma and rituals.

Do not wait for the Moshiach, you be your own liberator.
There are no "seventy two virgins"waiting for you, or whatever your version of that BS is.



Anonymous GOOD JEW said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Saturday, August 06, 2005 10:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You are overlooking the fact that all the Nissim G'dolim of the modern era happen to chassidim! If you don't believe me, I can point you to many books with tales of wonder.

Saturday, August 06, 2005 11:15:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Lots of info on this post!!

How come the previous Satmer Rebbe was allowed to give a eulohy to RAK at Lakewood?

What did Frankel do, exactly?

I don;t know the rank of the people in the organizations you name - could you explain the significance of subjects in future posts? Otherwise, outside of the most well-known Chassic groups and leaders, I just know someone from say, Bobov did it, cause I don't know his title or rank.

Any good stories from the Stonliner 9 yr old Rebbe, like when he hit puberty? When was this, btw?

Saturday, August 06, 2005 11:56:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Good Jew,

OH,OK!Thanks for telling me, genius!

Sunday, August 07, 2005 12:08:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


I have a few bridges to sell you,you naive imbecile!

Sunday, August 07, 2005 12:10:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Hi David,

In most cases, the guys who handle the money have a personal relationship with the rebbe.

These organizations are tightly controlled by a few close confidants, who report directly to the big cahuna.

That is why the rebbes are directly complicit in these crimes.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 12:20:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


RAK and the Satmar Rebbe,with all their ideological differences, had a common goal of restoring Judaism to their pre-war European versions.

They had alot of respect for each other although RAK refused to let Satmar students into the yeshivah for many years.

When RAK ultimately relented,he refused to let the chassidic students wear their shtreimels(fur shabbos hats)in the bais medrash.

They were in contact with each other, and I am told ,liked each other personally.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 12:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you're a liar

Sunday, August 07, 2005 12:52:00 AM  
Anonymous Normal Chasid said...


You really went off the deep end this time...sorry, but someone who calls the BESHT an ignoramus is not someone I can even begin to have an open dialogue with.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:06:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Normal Chasid,

Factual history is on my side!

Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I refer you to my comment about you being a liar.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:27:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your facts are wrong. The Ari did not write the Zohar - it was R' Moshe de Leon that either wrote, compiled or copied it from earlier manuscripts - depends on what you believe.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:44:00 AM  
Anonymous Chaim Berlin said...

Unorthodox, you must have had a bad shabbes!!
Firstly you got the dates and information wrong.The Ari (acronyom of:Ha'eloki rabbi yitzchak Luria)was born in 1534 and died in 1572 not the thirteenth century! The Zohar was publicized by Moses De Leon in the 13th century in Spain.(gosh your ignorance is quite appalling!)The rest of your diatribe is quite scary even for yours truly a misnaged.What a strange mix of fact and fiction.For Example:R'Shlomo Halberstam opened his first yeshivah on the West Side and later moved to Crown Heights.He was the boss of this albeit smaller version of todays Bobov , but surely was not hired as a kindergarten teacher in his own school!!!By the time he was in Crown Heights, Bobov was an organized community with quite a few followers.
You comments about the Ba'al Shem Tov are quite ridiculous.How can you say that the 'facts' prove
you right?Does anybody know for a fact that he was not a talmid chochom?In fact many of his disciples were known talmidei chachomim such as the Toldos who was a well known rov BEFORE he became a chosid, or the unchallenged fact that R'Shneour Zalman of Liadi, later first Chabad rebbe was one of the foremost rabbis of his time!!!
All this from a misnaged, like myself!

Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:58:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is very difficult to know what to believe. So many stories about rebbeim and leaders from centuries ago have been turned into myths...so much fiction has come to be accepted as fact...and there is so much we simply don't know. Most people, for instance, believe it is a FACT that the Maharal created a golem. And so on. IN the end, we must rely in large measure on our common sense and determine what stream of Yiddishkeit is the most satisfying. For some, dancing and shuffling around in a circle is the height of spiritual experience. Others, such as this writer, may think such experiences next to meaningless. Others put a lot of emphasis on the hat. Hats to me are also meaningless.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:37:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


Tell me what I am missing - my understanding was that the Ashkenaz (Misnagid) version of prayer was the straightforward shemonah esrai as drafted by the men o fthe Great Assembly -so how come all the Hassidim and the Sephardic Jews put all this Kabbala stuff in there?

Also - if there is doubt about the authorship of some of the Kabbalah texts- why didn't the Litvaks just say "we don't hold by it" intead of giving it some, if limited, place on the back shelf?

Also - why did they accept Kabbalah Shabbat prayers a few hundred years ago? Wasn't this service started by the ARI, except for those two short prayers at the end?

Sunday, August 07, 2005 9:54:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

One other question, a more general one:

I don't understand how, if the Chassidic movement is indeed to a large degree a corrupt and false movement - and I;m not saying it is not - how come it hasn't been discredited or removed from the Jewish world like all false movmeents throughout history, from the Essense to the Sadduccees to the Kairites?

Also - didn't Moshe, Joshua and the kings of Israel act like Rebbes in many ways? Is there not a precedent for this sort of structure if the leaders are worthy? And the kings were chosen in large part by heredity, like the Rebbes.

Now, obviously there was a checks and balance system - the Sanhedrin and Priests - that the Rebbes don't have - but the ouside world of options has some level of checks and balances -no single group has the power.

I guess I'm asking - how deviant are the least radical of the Chassidim, like Sloanim?

Sunday, August 07, 2005 11:28:00 AM  
Anonymous Normal Chasid said...


What ARE your facts? Did you have a direct vision from the BESHT's Rebbe saying he did not learn well as a child?

As Chaim Berlin stated most earlier Rebbes were knows Talmidai Chachomim and Rabbonim well before they became Chassidic.

As David Kelsey stated there is a precedent suchas Moshe Rebeinu and Yehoshua for following leaders.

Take the Posuk Vayamini Bahashem u'vMoshe Avdo!

Sunday, August 07, 2005 12:43:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Chaim Berliner,

I stand corrected on the dates the ARI lived.

He, NOT De-Leon turned the Kabbalistic writings into a movement.
It was the ARI,who actually compiled the works and his theories into what is the Zohar.

Many respected rabbonim thought he was delirious with his theories, and certainly until today,is frowned upon by the yeshivas.

Regarding Bobov,his movement did not begin until he moved to Crown Heights.
He opened his doors on St. Johns Place with a kindergarten,and handed out candies to the kids as they got off the bus.
He had about twenty people who davened with him on Shabbos,in the kindergarten classroom.
He was asked to leave his first job in Manhattan.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 1:10:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


Agreed,alot of the writings of the Kabballah got inserted into the davening.

That is what happens when alot of people over a long period of time let this questionable material into their lives.

Eventually,it winds up as conventional prayers.
You can look at the many different siddurim out there;nusach ashkenaz, nusach sfard, nusach Ari, all have added or subtracted various different traditional prayers.

Tfilla, was in itself, created after the destruction of the second Bais Hamikdosh.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 1:19:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


The Vilna Gaon did in fact call the Besht a lunatic and a heretic.

Lubavitch has in fact been put outside of Judaism.

The overwhelming number of Jews that embraced Chassidism,because of their philosophy of song and dance and meditation,made it appealing to the simpleton.

Time will tell if in fact they can continue to exist.
Gur Rebbe, starting talk of his knowledge of the coming of Moshiach,is just another example of the slippery slope they are walking down.

Regarding Lubavitch,the son of the first Rebbe had converted to Catholicism, and practically no direct descendant is frum today.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 1:31:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


We can not even for one second, compare the leadership of Moshe, Yehoshua and Dovid Hamelech to chassidic dynasties.

Moshe had his direct orders from Hashem, including the lineage of leaders that would follow him.

The chassidic dynasties survive by a version of Darwin's theory of survival of the "misfitists".

A previous comment was made that some rebbes are talmidei chachomim.
Yes, so was the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

Most rebbes alive today are ignoramuses!

Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:01:00 PM  
Anonymous chaim berlin said...

Please don't bore me with your ignorant claptrack.
IF you had no idea when the Ari lived, don't sell yourself as an expert on the Zohar!
By the time the Ari came around, the Zohar had been very extensively circulated throughout the Jewish world and Moses De Leon eas the central 13 century figure in that dissemination.
True that the Ari gave the study of Kabbala a very strong ,mainstream push.
Btw, what's wrong with a Rebbe giving candies to kids??

Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:35:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Chaim Berlin,

Meet you tonight at Mincha,and slug it out once and for all.

I am proud that I know nothing about the Zohar,I know nothing about Scientology either.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:49:00 PM  
Anonymous chaim berlin said...

I despise people who are ignorant and proud of it!

Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How can you meet Mr. Gur Aryeh? Are you also in Machane Moishe greeting Mike Bloomberg along with smiles-too-much-Shachter?

Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:06:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Chaim Berlin,

You remind me of the retarded ,dumbest kids in the yeshiva who knew s..., but could not wait to catch the rebbe in a mistake.
He would give a two hour pilpul,these morons could barely stay awake,but if he misquoted a posuk, they were all over him.

You obviously are an ignorant PUTZ, who is under the influence of retard Schachter.

You can't handle the truth,and ignore the entire "pilpul", because it is way over your head.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:54:00 PM  
Anonymous sechel said...

your comments would have more validity without the personal degradations.The facts can stand on their own.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 6:04:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


There is nothing like some "colorful" expressions of endearment to call attention to the facts.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 6:49:00 PM  
Blogger Rachack said...

you're right, there is nothing like it.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:04:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


I think this is the first time you are agreeing with me.
Much obliged.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Un-ortho--Go get a fuckin job

Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:26:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I have a job;getting animals like you pissed off at me telling the truth!

Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:31:00 PM  
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Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:52:00 PM  
Blogger Rachack said...

Actually, Mr. UO, if you got your facts straight this is the second time that I agreed with you. The first time was here

Sunday, August 07, 2005 8:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Firstly, RAK and Satmar were diametrically opposed to each other. However, the did share one thing in common: Satmar held “nishtakech toras Habaal Shem Tov” He turned Satmar into Hungrain litvaks. The story goes that once Reb Yollish (YT) met RAK and he started going on his usual Israel rant etc. etc. As usual, YT referred to everyone that participated in the elections a “min” and an apikores. RAK went ballistic when he heard this. He said that he can handle things said about himself, but he would never tolerate the bashing of his father-in-law, Reb Isser Zalman Meltzer. It is said that they rarely spoke to each other since that incident. However, YT was a master of deceit and words. He was also a smart man and he knew that the “yeshiva world” needed to be loved. At RAK levaya, YT started crying and he quoted a Rashi about Ahron Hakohen that said “Lehagid shvacho shel Ahron shelo shina”. He basically bought off the entire yeshiva world with a quote from Rashi. There is no doubt that YT was a very smart and learned man. However, he was the initiator of orthodox terrorism. He actually started terrorizing in Europe before the war. If you didn’t agree with him, he went on a complete offensive. The only people that stood up to him were Lubavich. Everyone else crapped in their pants because of him. Even Hutner was completely petrified of him. Hutner was probably scared because he learned by Rav Kook and YT considered Rav Kook to be worse than Herzl. YT probable bought him a lifetime supply of Cola and he did what was told. People still a wonder why Hutner stopped learning chasidus with Lubavich…………. Hmmmmm…….

Secondly, I do not see the significance of bringing up the religious status of anyone’s offspring. Our forefathers had children who until this day, are our greatest enemies. Many leaders, great and small, have had children who went against them. It is a completely irrelevant attack on a person.

Thirdly, your insights on Bobov are completely uncalled for. R’ Shlomo Halberstam (RSH) never harmed anyone. I am not a bobover, and I am chassidish. I have never heard anyone knock RSH. He never claimed to be a “bal mofes” and . There are many so-called “gedolim” who have defrauded the Jewish nation and deserve much much higher priority. His intentions were honest and noble. He suffered tremendously during WWII and he didn’t even want to be in the Rabbinate when he came to the USA. RSH resurrected Polish Jewry and he did the Polish community what Satmar did to the Hungarians. The legend goes that Satmar even tried to bring RSH under his spell of ant-Semitism. RSH claimed that he didn’t understand the SHITa and moved to Boro Park. RSH set up many institutions in Israel and visited on numerous occasions. He had no enemies and he was true mentch. What the present Babooners are doing today have nothing to do with him and RSH should in no way be held accountable.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 11:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...

Firstly, RAK and Satmar were diametrically opposed to each other. However, the did share one thing in common: Satmar held “nishtakech toras Habaal Shem Tov” He turned Satmar into Hungrain litvaks. The story goes that once Reb Yollish (YT) met RAK and he started going on his usual Israel rant etc. etc. As usual, YT referred to everyone that participated in the elections a “min” and an apikores. RAK went ballistic when he heard this. He said that he can handle things said about himself, but he would never tolerate the bashing of his father-in-law, Reb Isser Zalman Meltzer. It is said that they rarely spoke to each other since that incident. However, YT was a master of deceit and words. He was also a smart man and he knew that the “yeshiva world” needed to be loved. At RAK levaya, YT started crying and he quoted a Rashi about Ahron Hakohen that said “Lehagid shvacho shel Ahron shelo shina”. He basically bought off the entire yeshiva world with a quote from Rashi. There is no doubt that YT was a very smart and learned man. However, he was the initiator of orthodox terrorism. He actually started terrorizing in Europe before the war. If you didn’t agree with him, he went on a complete offensive. The only people that stood up to him were Lubavich. Everyone else crapped in their pants because of him. Even Hutner was completely petrified of him. Hutner was probably scared because he learned by Rav Kook and YT considered Rav Kook to be worse than Herzl. YT probable bought him a lifetime supply of Cola and he did what was told. People still a wonder why Hutner stopped learning chasidus with Lubavich…………. Hmmmmm…….

Secondly, I do not see the significance of bringing up the religious status of anyone’s offspring. Our forefathers had children who until this day, are our greatest enemies. Many leaders, great and small, have had children who went against them. It is a completely irrelevant attack on a person.

Thirdly, your insights on Bobov are completely uncalled for. R’ Shlomo Halberstam (RSH) never harmed anyone. I am not a bobover, and I am chassidish. I have never heard anyone knock RSH. He never claimed to be a “bal mofes” and . There are many so-called “gedolim” who have defrauded the Jewish nation and deserve much much higher priority. His intentions were honest and noble. He suffered tremendously during WWII and he didn’t even want to be in the Rabbinate when he came to the USA. RSH resurrected Polish Jewry and he did the Polish community what Satmar did to the Hungarians. The legend goes that Satmar even tried to bring RSH under his spell of ant-Semitism. RSH claimed that he didn’t understand the SHITa and moved to Boro Park. RSH set up many institutions in Israel and visited on numerous occasions. He had no enemies and he was true mentch. What the present Babooners are doing today have nothing to do with him and RSH should in no way be held accountable.

Sunday, August 07, 2005 11:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Good Jew said...

Un ortho is a bochur in yeshiva who has access to the yeshiva's computer and spews all his shit online. He is 18 yrs old and he is not in real estate (unless you consider living in a dormitory real estate)He is known to be the most depressed kid in the whole yeshiva and therefore he writes all his hate online. Just know that his thoughts are not from some respected guy who made it big in the world like he tries to make an image of himself, but rather he is a bochur who doesnt try hard enough.

Monday, August 08, 2005 9:07:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

pretty smart kid if you ask me.
how do you know this?

Monday, August 08, 2005 9:58:00 AM  
Anonymous Isaac said...

I know him.He is a real rich guy from a big real-estate family.
We tease him in shul, of course he denies it.
He is a very smart guy and gives a shiur in gemora and lives in Flatbush.

Monday, August 08, 2005 10:06:00 AM  
Anonymous Sweet Soul said...

If you know him may you can ask him to stop speaking about rebbes like this even if its true.a person who teaches gemora should have more respect

Monday, August 08, 2005 10:25:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK shoita, explane this: how come the fish talked in New Square and not Flatbush? I will tell you why shoita, because the zadikim of the chasidim have the schus to have nissim galooim, you are so stoopid you didnt even know that you stoopid shitehead.

Monday, August 08, 2005 11:33:00 AM  
Anonymous Good Jew said...

I cant say which yeshiva he learns in because it would ruin the name of the yeshiva, but un ortho is not coming back for elul zman. All I'm trying to say is that people shouldnt think that he has the right to an opinion on things like this. He is 18 yrs old!! if he was so sure he was right he would come out and tell everybody who he is. BTW, everyone in yeshiva knows that unortho is not straight

Monday, August 08, 2005 11:43:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, what did we learn today? Chasidim are behimos, demented, gonuvem, gangsters, dysfunctional, mafia.

Granted, every town has its dumpster. But going back and ripping down gedolim? One can clearly see that you have no knowledge of what Chasidism is and what it stands for, why not mock the torah sh’ball peh? there are more then enough sugyos that wouldn't agree with your process of thought, things that are even more obscure and unfathomable then Chasidism, Oh, and why not take a step back?, torah sh’bicsav, what about poroh aduma, what about neziris, etc. doesn’t that sound cult-like to you?. You are simply an obtuse child and unintelligent human being that the Gemoro says on “Kish Kish Karya”. And I have a great tip for you, If you don’t understand something, don’t challenge it, “discover It”.

Monday, August 08, 2005 2:55:00 PM  
Blogger Heshy said...

On many occasions, especially within the last few weeks, many confused Jews have questioned me regarding the Torah’s opinion on the Kahane idea. To most Jews, it is a very complex topic, where you may find some people for it and others in vehement opposition. But what do our great sages say?

See http://heshyshouse.blogspot.com/

Monday, August 08, 2005 6:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Chassidus certainly leaves some to be desired, and some chassidim certainly must do teshuva and learn more Torah, but you cannot talk like that about the Baal Shem Tov. As much as I may pity SOME chassidum, and as ardent as I am in believing the misnagdic view to be correct, I do not believe I ever heard anyone write like that about the Baal Shem Tov. Even if he did exist, we cannot talk like that about him. He was not ignorant. Nor was he a baal hagalla. Talking this way will not be mikarev any of our wayward bretheren to be mekabel the Torah and mitzvos and ultimately do teshuva.

Monday, August 08, 2005 6:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seeing through Chassidish nonsense and accepting one of the ikkarei emunah (the unity torah shebiksav anf torah shbaal peh) are two VERY different things. Chassidus is not a mystery, it is an institution that is not correct in its core beleifs and its hesitancy for not preventing the outcomes of its absurd views. Those chassidim who love the Torah and learn are good, those who don't are modern, just like any plain old conservative or reform Jew. Garb means nothing.

Please do not confuse ikkarei emunah with the farce that some chassidim portend judaism to be.

With that, if you are in fact a teshuva, and you do not learn Torah, I hope that you do teshuva.

Monday, August 08, 2005 6:58:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Am Echad,

We agree on most of your comments, except for the Bobov issue.
Under his watch, millions upon millions of dollars of fraud transpired.
Who is responsible if not him?
CEO Bernie Ebbers is going to jail for the Worldcom fraud ,for the rest of his life.
Just because Shlomo was a NICE GUY, I am sorry, that does not get him off the hook.

Secondly,what right did he have to put his son as rebbe in his tzavah, Naftulchick was a gofer and a jerk,oh yes and also a nice guy.

Come on there were so many people that could have made a kiddush hashem. like Steinwurtzel for example.
Look at Bobov today.
That is what happens when you turn it into a business, all hell breaks loose because it's all about money.

Monday, August 08, 2005 7:23:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

The Vilna Gaon was not a wimp like Kotler or Wachtfogel and he put the Besht in cherem, and called him an apikorus.
He knew alot more than you guys do!

Monday, August 08, 2005 7:33:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Stoopid Shitehead,
When you learn how to speak,read & write English, get back to me.
In the meanwhile, go eat some herring!

Monday, August 08, 2005 7:36:00 PM  
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Monday, August 08, 2005 7:44:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

To All My Readers,

I know many of you think I am some angry lunatic.
I will say to you the following:

There is no accountability in our religion, whether it's on the left or the right!

Until the internet came along my writings were edited to the tastes of the various publications.

I finally am able to get the word out, that "I am mad as hell and I can't take it anymore"

I will be in everyone's faces.
I will report the facts, good, bad & ugly.

It may take a lifetime, but I will do my hishtadlus to break the back of every phony individual and organization.


Monday, August 08, 2005 7:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you never explained to a satisfacshun why and how and there was a MIRACLE in New Square when a fish which was not human talked in a human voice saying divrei kidusha. you can't explain it because it is beyond your intlijunce. you think a jew is better than another because he is not a chusid. well that is wrong you stoopid shitehead.

Monday, August 08, 2005 11:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


Unfortunately, you are correct about all the fraud that goes on in Bobov and all over the Jewish World. They are all thieves. Additionally, any moisad, rebbe or yeshiva that charges money for a “bracha” is engaged in gzeila. In the chasidish vacuum, it defeats the entire purpose of what chaisidus was supposed to be. Chasidus was founded to elevate the standard of the peasant and to focus on other aspects of life. In the yeshiva world, they are mimicking the chasidishe assholes. Chaim Berlin is a perfect example of a yeshiva that acts as a chasidishe moisad. Aaron Shechter is one of the biggest phonies in the yeshiva world. He is revered as the savior of the world. I dare someone to step in his path when he is dancing to “Yamim Al yimei…” I think Klal Yisroel should donate more money to CB so that Shechter can buy another pair of Cartier glasses.

Furthermore, I think that Chaisidm, as bad as they may be, did much more for Jewry than Litvaks did. Does Lakewood do 1/10000 of the chessed that Satmar does? Does Elya Svei come close to the Lubavicher in Ahavas Yosroel or helping other Jews? Not one Litvish “gadol” gave a shit about any outside problems. Not one American Litvak cared about Israel. No one blinked an eye about Iranian Jews, Ethiopian Jews, and Yemenite Jews etc. Even Satmar made a selfish attempt to help Yemenite Jews!!!! In recent years, there have been some yeshiva guys going to the former U.S.S.R and doing some small kiruv summer programs. Today it is extremely convenient and fashionable for ones shiduch to go on a plane directly to Moscow and walk around with a Yarmulka. However, where were these people when the times were tough? A sick comment from the yeshiva world is that Lubavich makes the baal tshuvas into Lubavichers. What the hell should they do? Should they distribute posters of R Shach???!!!!!! Should they send them to Lakewood?!! These new summer Llitvishe shluchim teach nothing but Lithuanian dogma!!! They have become exactly what they made of. What goes around comes around!

Monday, August 08, 2005 11:21:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Am Echad,

It seems that you understand what is going on today.
The facts are that with all this gedolim talk, there are none.
Everyone for themselves.

Very sad!

The internet can be as a useful tool to make people aware as you are about the crisis Yiddishkeit is in.
Most people b'avonosainu harabim, are either fooled or are plain stupid.
Keep up the good work.

Monday, August 08, 2005 11:53:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

My Dear Stoopid Shitehead,

De tawking feesh is a nais nigle,dis cen onle heppen in skver becuz of da kdushas haaretz.

fletbush fil mit shkootzim urimoosem, dey ken not be zoiche to de talking feesh.

ve in fletbush talk ven ve eat fish and de choolent on shabes, an den de feesh talks bek to us moitze shabbos after havddoola.
de feesh on moitze shabbos vants to talk divreee kdusha but ken not becuz in dis room vere it talks, you cen not talk divre kdusha.
mebe esk ah shaila from de rebbe if das feesh ken give shabbos tshiva drosho in skver, de feesh ken lernin besser ve de rebbe.
anyvey, zi gezint and luz greecen ala bhaimas in skver.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:06:00 AM  
Anonymous juju said...

you have a great sense of humor.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:33:00 AM  
Blogger bnei levi said...

By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
Un-Ortho Jew for one thing if you trash the Arizal and the Holy Zohar you have to trash the Vilno Gaon too since he held Arizal to be a great tzadik and quoted his books and as far as I know never disputed the authenticity of the Zohar, but I'm sure you never read most of them ...or you don't really care just want to trash the Chassidim at any price.
2)Your children will end up to be extreme Mashichistim wait and see...
3) Since you are supposedly so wealthy I have an investment for you :

$50,000 minimum pre-ipo venture capital check it out click here for the full story
, but I bet you'll pass, as this year is the year of the reward for those who serve Hashem (see link bellow) and not for shlemazles such as yourself

Will disengagement happen? When will the 3rd temple be rebuilt? Click here to read the Timeline of Moshiach and Geula - Messiah and redemption hidden in the prophecy of Yeshayahu (Isaiah).Consider: “Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai said...when it will be close to the days of Moshiach, even children who will be in the world at that time will find secrets of wisdom, and will know from them ends [of exile] and calculations [of redemption], and at that time [G-d Almighty] will reveal [them] to everyone.” (Zohar Vayeira 118a) >

With no respect (I can't really respect someone who writes such articles about Chassidim , the Ari and the Zohar.) and blessing for refua shleima.
Ariel Sokolovsky
PS. As a self proclaimed Rambam scholar can you explain to me how could the Lubavitcher Rebbe make prophecies that are still coming true (see for example The Iraqi News of 5763 (2003) in a Sichah of 5751 (1991) (English) or a more complete edition in Hebrew while being "senile" as you say is supposedly the reason for him agreeing to be identified as Moshiach , doesn't the Rambam write that a Novi must be physically and mentally healthy?:-)

Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 8:16:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Holy sh-t!!! Did you see what that Messianic just wrote above me?

UO - These guys are completely gone - we have to accept that, and circle the bandwagons.

Isn't there away to get Chabad to join the Southern Babtists already? Can't we convince them that the Rebbe and Jesus were one and the same?

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


Your comparison of the Rebbe, to Jesus(yemach Shmo), shows that you are a moron and an uneducated shmuck. I am not Lubavich, but uttering that phrase shows that you are a complete asshole and imbecile. Say what you want about present day mishichistim, the Lubavicher rebbe was one of the greatest Jewish leaders of the 20th Century. He left an everlasting legacy and impression on the entire world. He wrote letters to the Kings, Princes, Queens, Presidents, Governors, Mayors and everyone in between. He made time for everyone and didn’t charge money for his opinions. He didn’t enjoy a selfish moment on this world. His entire life was dedicated to his people and klal yisroel. He slept very little and dedicated his time to the real problems of the Jewish world. Did any other rabbi give a rats ass about “Mi Yehudi”? Did anyone care about the war in Lebanon? Did anyone care about Chevron? “Shleimus haaretz”? Would he ever alter an opinion for money like many other rabbis? Did he ever say a bad word about anyone? Even though he was cursed out by the yeshiva world and R’ Shach, he never uttered a reply. He was much greater than them. He was too busy to engage in bitul zman and loshan hara. He was probably the only Rabbi that knew all the issues very well. He knew exact borders and boundaries. He knew the UN resolutions and he spoke to the Prime Minister of Israel about them. His intentions were completely genuine because Chabad in Israel has an extremely minimal political presence. This is in contrast to Degel Hatora, Aguda, and Shas that would do anything for money. Who started the trend of giving away Jewish land? It was Aryeh Deri who was under the auspices of Avadya Yosef. (He also happened to be a disciple of R’ Shach) If not for the signature of Deri on Oslo, there would be no problems today. The only Rabbi that foresaw these problems and spoke about them was the Lubavicher rebbi.

Go to your small time asshole rabbi and kiss his ass!!!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:12:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


You seem to be totally gone.
Please do not continue in this path, you are in for great hurt .

Thousands of the Rebbe's followers have left Yiddishkeit after he actually died.

Do you think he is still alive?

My best wishes that you return to your senses and realize you have been lied to.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:13:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Am Echad,

David was just showing the comparison of the followers.

The rebbe was a brilliant person as I said on my blog, and was the only one of the rebbes to care about the klal.

Look at the tragedy that is now Lubavitch, it has turned into a movement outside of Judaism.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:19:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


According to everything I read, Jesus died a religious Jew.

Seventy years after he died did Christianity under Paul start crystallizing.

The comparisons you made are fair.

I highly doubt the Lubavitcher Rebbe thought this was going to happen.

Nobody really knows for sure.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:25:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

When Rabbi Schach attacked Lubavitch, his comments seemed extreme, and his comparisons hyperbole.

Who knew how dead on he was?

Obviously, the Messianics of Lubavitch are not Lubavitch in their entirety.

But they don't have to be for this to be an enourmous problem, not only for Lubavitch, but for Jewry as a whole.

If it makes me a bad Jew for saying so - so be it.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:51:00 PM  
Anonymous you're meeyus said...


You seem like a novice to these issues. Comparing the Lubavitcher Rebbe to Jesus is absurd. You are a fool.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...

DK, and UO,

I am the last person to defend rabbis. What I say is a collection of what I have researched extensively and what I believe. I am completely anti-establishment and I am not ashamed to say anything to anyone. I have verbally attacked Herz Frankel and many other assholes to their faces. In my opinion, R’ Shach was a brilliant person and a huge talmid chacham. His ahavas hatora was second to none. However, he was only human and humans can make mistakes. It is believed that R’ Shach had a personal vendetta against Chabad. I PERSONALLY know someone in Israel who gave R’ Shach an interview to become a maggid shiur in Chabad. At the time, R’ Shach was a maggid shiur in the “Yishuv Hachadash” R’ Shach did not get the job. It is not far fetched for anyone to have a personal vendetta. Satmar had one for Israel and R’ Shach had one against Chabad. Whatever the Lubavicher rebbe said, R’ Shach would say the opposite. When Chabad came out with the mizva of putting on Tfillin on strangers, R’ Shach went against it. When the Lubavicher said it is halachically forbidden to cede any land to Arab terrorists, R’ Shach reversed his prior rulings. It says in Avos “chachomim, hizharu bidivreichem…” Sometimes Rabbis have arguments but they must be careful with their words because bad things may come of it. Satmar said some crazy things in his life and it gave birth to neturie karta and the CRC paying for prime time ads on national radio condemning Israel. This occurred two years ago!!! They only stopped when it hurt their pockets financially. R’ Shach comments gave guys like Elya Svei a license to say what they want about Chabad and Modern Orthodoxy. How in the world does a little rabbi with 80 students from Philadelphia have a right to talk about Chabad? What the hell did he do for the world????

Mishichistim are crazy and they are condemned by most of the Chabad leadership. I know a very respected talmid of R” Kotler, who heads a respected yeshiva. I asked him if in his personal opinion mishichistim are kofrim or not. He answered that they are crazy but they are not kofrim. He went on and said that for example, I come out and decide that UO is the moshiach, I may be completely F***** up but I am not a koifer or an apikoires. Additionally, anyone that doesn’t count them for minyan or boycotts them is oiver on 100% sinas chinum. They are ill and they must be treated. To compare any sect of Jewish souls to Christianity is a true insult to the Jewish religion.

PS: I don’t think any of you know anything about Christianity. They believe that Jesus died for our sins and that he is destined to come back soon. Mishichistim believe that their rabbi is not dead he is only in hiding!!! When making comparisons, compare apples to apples!!!!!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what happened to Meeyus?

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We want meeyus.com back!!!!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re: Jesus

See what happens when you throw a confused boy out of yeshiva?

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Funny, when I saw the name "you're meeyus" I was reminded of the now defunct "meeyus.com." That was awesome - it was authentic, original and ahead of its time. I wonder what happened to them....does anyone know?

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Mann said...

R' Shach is overrated. Way overrated.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Chezkel said...

What do you against R' Shach (Z"L)?

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Mann said...

He hated people.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Mann said...

Svei is worse - don't forget that.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Chezkel said...

Please elaborate?

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Mann said...

I remember in Yeshiva, around 13 years ago a letter that Shach wrote condemning Lubavitch, calling them Kofrim. The yeshivishe putzes ate it up. But the truth is where I attended was hardly considered a yeshiva...

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...

The Yehsiva world was horny over the hate letters they were begging for more

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Mann said...

Svei is a retard that constantly makes a fool of himself. His hard-core Philly fans are left with nothing to hold on to. Most of the Yeshiva velt knows he's an idiot - Oh but let's not forget about Shechter from Chaim Berlin - he's a very sick man...

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:05:00 PM  
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Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:07:00 PM  
Anonymous Mann said...

I remember as a kid in yeshiva years ago, our school bus used to pick up kids from lubavitch. We couldn't wait to fight with those "dirty lubabs" I really used to think there was something wrong with them! I didn't invent it - it was the fu**ing system! The right-wing litfucks poisin everyones mind.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:09:00 PM  
Anonymous R' Shach said...


please delete spam. I hope people who spam blogs about free ipods, etc. drop dead!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Chezkel said...


Its funny you say that because I remember as a child thinking that they are wierd people. Now I remeber all the bad things my rabeim used to say. They were sick people. Those Rabbis were like real anti-semites!!!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:43:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Am Ehad,

I have no problem with followers of Christianity or any other Messianic "return" based faith - I;m not that frum - just don't call it traditional Judaism.

Here is a site about some of the wonderful things the Rebbe stood for.

From an insider you can respect, not some nasty Litvak like me.


My favorite story is when Lubabs try to make the Vilna Goan's tirade into a "personal vendetta" - like the man left the house enough to have "personal vendettas!"

Such silly, silly revisionism.

Who are you kidding? Are you kidding yourselves? Do at least you believe what you are saying?

The Vilna Goan was one of the greatest Jewish heroes of the last millenium. As bad as things are, imagine if we wouldn't have had him draw a line in the sand!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:07:00 PM  
Anonymous mann said...


In case you haven't noticed the name is "Am Echad" not "Am Ehad." You might not be able/want to pronounce it but surely you can spell it.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...

Have you met the Vilna gaon? What do you know about him? He was an absolutely incredible man. You, and I, and everyone else in this world have no right to interfere between the Vilna Gaon and the Besht. It is said that the baal hatanya almost met the gaon. The legend goes that the meeting could have bought peace to the world.

Whether you like them or not, Chaisdus saved the Jewish world. Most Jews today have chasidish blood in them. In pre-war Europe, the Litvaks were all going down the tube. There was a tremendous amount of intellectual rebellion and kfira in Lita. The isms really took a strong hold in their vicinity. Additionaly, over 95% of Litvaks were murdered in WWII. When the previous Lubavicher rebbe came to America in the early 1900’s he said that America is not ready for frum people. My great-grandfather came here in 1925 and went back to Hitlers Europe because it was impossible to be religious in America. Lubavich and Satmar, hands down changed the face of orthodoxy in America. Many Litvaks used to work on Shabat. They were ashamed of being Yiddin. Lubavich and Satmar created the concept of “kok dich uun” basically they said if you don’t like the way I dress then eat shit and die. They created the entire infrastructure of mass shechita, kashrut, and cholov yisroel. Litvaks are ashamed to do these things. They don’t want to disturb the goyim. They are always busy appeasing the world!! Wake up you assholes!!! The world hates us!! At best, they respect us when we are strong and when we stick together!! Am Yisrael Chai!!!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:38:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Excellent, excellent retort, Mann.

Now please go back to calling those who disagree with you foul names related to the act and organs of fornication.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:40:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Since many, even most, German Jews survived the war, I guess that proves, according to you, that we should all be trying to act like good Germans, become Reform, appreciate the non-Jewish Arts, and go to University.

I have no problem with the last two goals, personally.

Here is a great website as well!


Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Berl,C.H. said...

Am Echad,
You are getting tiresome.You are such a total Lubavitcher hiding behing your anonymity.
Just for your information:Most orthodox jews believe that if in giving up some land in Eretz Yisroel and most certainly Aza, which does not have kedushas E.Yisroel you will be saving jewish lives it is not only permissable but a chiyuv of 'loh sa'amod al dam re'echo'.Stop adding to you imaginary list of 'sins' this mitzva.
Unorthodox:Why did you censor that poor 'bnai levy' aka Ariel Sokolovsky's post?He is much less dangerous than the so called 'normal' Lubavitchers, his cards are all on the table.
Re the Meshichisten:Since you in your infinite wisdom pointed out that Bernie Ebbers ceo of Worldcom is going to sit in jail for a long time since under his watch fraud took place, how would you judge the late Lubavitcher Rebbe z'l?I know that I'm not to blame for this crazy long live the Rebbe nonsense.Neither are you.I know that the messianics base themselves on the Rebbes own words.Sokolovsky will be able to furnish as many quotes as you want.............So, he is at least guilty of not watching what he said so as not to be misinterpreted.......Not every day and at least not since Shabsai Tzvi have we seen such an irrational movement coming out of Judaism. What is even scarier is that a small group has also decided that the Rebbe was the creator, chas vesholom.They sing long live 'boreinu' instead of 'adoneinu' as their 'anthem.Don't worry however about their lack of sources:They also base themselves on the Rebbes words.They can cite chapter and verse.Ask Ariel.
In short:Though Lubavitch have somehow gotten themselves a good name, they really are in competition with the Mormon Church, who btw also have their 'shlichim / emmisaries' and are very dangerous,UNLESS THEY ARE STOPPED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
It pains me that an important leader and chasidic group may go down in history as another breakoff similar to Christianity.
(This poster is unfortunately reporting live from between these sad souls. Ad mosai. Hashem yerachem.)

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:52:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


You are every bit a good Jew as anyone, based on your intelligent writings, BETTER!

The Lubavitch movement today is NOT JUDAISM.
The Rebbe under his watch, let it slip into a "Christianized" version.

Butman, the clown, drags the Rebbe out one Sunday and announced he was Moshiach.
The Rebbe at that time could not even speak, and G-D knows his mind was gone by then.
Responsibilty rests on the leader of every movement to keep their flock in line.

Ultimately, this great, brilliant man led Lubavitch into a batardized Judaism.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Am Echad,
Since you are so busy in how 'chassidus' saved the world and by chassidus you mean Lubavitch of course because they are the only 'true chassidim' according to your ilk. What happened to all the descendant of these saviours of Judaism?

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


Actually, the reform movement is dead. They average about 1/2 child and a puppy. They are like their German counterparts in Germany- ZPG - Zero Population Growth. They are the inside enemies, the Jews of silence!!!

Many of them were here before the war and they were very happy that the USA closed their doors to European immigrants. They didn’t want the “Ost Yudduen” (east Jews) in America. They were ashamed of their nation. When the St. Louis was docked off the coast of FL and everyone knew that these Jews were headed to the ovens, they sat quiet!!! They were happy to be at the dog races on Shabat. FEH!!!! And the biggest chutzpa is that they were in the forefront of the Liberal rights movement!! They all ran down to the south to protest for other people but they would never stand up for Jews!!! FEH!!! I am disgusted typing this!!! They are a true abomination and just as the Karaites and Zidudkim, they too will disappear and will only occupy a very small chapter in our history books. Your sick for comparing them to any orthodox sect. I wouldn’t even compare them to Elya Svei!!!!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


Not only are you an asshole, but you are also an Am Haaretz and true delusional person. Why don’t you go read the Rambam on hilchos shabat and see what he says about protecting Jewish land (not only land in EY but also outside? Why don’t you go and look into the history of Gaza? What do you know? Even of you claim that Gaza is not historically Jewish, what about kivush yachid? What about the fact that Jews live there today and they are being thrown out of their homes? You probably couldn’t locate Gaza on a map to save your life!!! You are a lemming!! Go read the Hamoidia and get off on the Aguda Convention!!!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:07:00 PM  
Anonymous berl said...

David:Take no notice of the above poster.He is typical of the narrow minds brough up in certain corridors.
Am Echad:Go back to singing 'yechi hamelech'

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:07:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


Great answer!!! You should be on CNN's Crossfire!! You are so Sharp. You are not even worthy of debate. You are beneath contempt!!!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:11:00 PM  
Anonymous berl said...

Am Echad:I would rather be amongst the company of 'delusional people' such as the late Rabbi J.B Soloveichik, his son in law, lehavdil Rabbi Lichstein, AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE YESHIVA WORLD.
Talking about delusional:You are a member and 'defender' of a group in which many believe their leader who passed on 11 years ago IS STILL ALIVE!!!!Go figure!
(And no....I did not mean The Elvis Presley fan group!!!)

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


I am not Lubavich. I live in Flatbush and I attended Black Hat institutions my entire life. I have nothing against "The Rav" and I admire YU. However, Rabbi Lichtenstien from Gush is a true Lefty. He will be a lefty until he himself is uprooted. The letter that Rabbi Amital wrote after the murder of Rabin was one that would befit Shimon Peres or Yossi Beilin. The Rav had tremendous respect for the Lubavich rebbe and you should follow suit. It is very interesting to note that the Rav and The Lubavicher both loved Israel but neither ever went to visit.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:21:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Am Echad,
Do not write off our Reform or Conservative brothers.

I know many of them personally and do business with them.
They are honest and ethical, and very proud Jews.
They are in the category of "tinok shenisba", they do not know better, and embrace what they do understand.

I learn with a whole group of our Reform brothers, through Partners In Torah.
They literally drink the words of the Torah, as best they can understand.
Two from my group, will start learning G'mora with me shortly.

Regarding your comments on the difference between dying for sins, but he will come back down when ALL people embrace Christianity;
and a guy who died and was buried in front of thousands,but he is just hiding,is really stretttttching it.
There is no difference between the two philosophies.
C'mon Am Echad, you know better!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:23:00 PM  
Anonymous berl said...

Why are you giving Am Echad the benefit of knowing 'better'.I am quite sure that this delusional creature does not know any better.
Btw:Why not stop the garbage now?Rav Soloveichik was no chosid of your Rebbe at all!!!!!!!!
He met him only one at a farbrengen, for which he had a special reason to attend.Once in forty years!!!!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


I think that you are doing a great job at exposing the lies that are prevalent in our community. Nothing you said about Lubavich is new. Everyone knows these things. I think its time to move on and expand the ratings of the “gedoilim”. Messianic Jewry is old talk. Time to expose Flatbushism, Satmar, Viznitz, Pupa, Lakewood, and all the other goons!!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:30:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


Stop with the MO crap!!!! You guys were nothing untill you beacme black !!You were a dying breed until you moved right. Where are your leaders?

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:32:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Has anyone heard from Meeyus?

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:34:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Am Echad,

I think Berl has an important point - it is as telling as it is inaccurate that you need to revise JB's history, suggesting he was a fan of Lubavitch - AS IF!

And for the record - JB never went "black."

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:44:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


What connection do you have to Lubavitch? why do they bother you so?

just ignore them if you are so afraid of being influenced by them

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:45:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Am Echad,
I'll take NO leaders over the ones we've got.

Hey, calm down!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:47:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

My root problem with Lubavitch is not that different than my problem with the Conservative and Conservadox movements - they make things up, and pretend it's traditional, normative Judaism, and promote this fantasy to the world.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


The masses are asses and unfortunately we Jews are no exception

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Lakewood fantasies don't bother me, and neither do Lubavitcher ones. They are both very far from the yiddishkeit practiced by my parents.
I am much more interested in following the money trail, and UO does a remarkable job in this regard.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:12:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

"Al Aileh Ani Bocheya"
Loosely translated,"on this do I cry!"
Menachem Mendel Shneerson was the most brilliant and all around person, in the last one hundred years.
Genius in Torah, great depth of understanding on all issues, the father of the kiruv and chesed movements as we know it.His ahavas yisroel was unmatched by all the KTANIM combined.

Then he blew it!
"On this do I cry!"

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...

To all,

This is what the world thinks of us:


Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:35:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...


You don't seem like a bad person - just not very knowledgable. You seem new at the game and don't fully grasp the issues. How can you if you haven't been lied to or at the receiving end of most of which Unorthodox rants about. While we were suffering in the various institutions of torture you were probably living it up in some MO yeshivah (at best).

You bash anything just for the sake of bashing. You clearly know nothing about Lubavitch and collect all your "facts" from the Internet. What do you do all day, google "Lubavitch?"

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


If it were up to me, there would be a "bechina" before someone would be allowed to post on a blog or site similar to this one.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:13:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

Berl wrote: Just for your information:Most orthodox jews believe that if in giving up some land in Eretz Yisroel and most certainly Aza, which does not have kedushas E.Yisroel you will be saving jewish lives it is not only permissable...

How will that lead to saving Jewish lives? Oh, that's right the Arabs are nice people. Once we give them some land they'll stop blowing up babies....

Genius! You were probably a color war general in camp :)

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Yankel said...

I think I small camp ..... Munk? or maybe Manavu?

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:21:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


While my experience was more limited than yours or certainly Un-Orthodox's, like anyone who was naive enough in their youth to trust their path to the ultra-Orthodox community, I had more than my share of disappointments, and quite frankly, my present personal religious level - or lack there of - reflects those experiences.

True, I never experienced Lubavitch, nor would I - but I have had friends and acquaintences, and even an ex-girlfriend who have - and whose subsequent anger and bitter disappointment I experienced vicariously.

It is terrible when a person who sought yiddsihkeit ends up feeling played. I don't see how this is a controversial idea.

It is a horrible, spiritually dehibilitating thing. I don't understand how it can be viewed otherwise.

And it is rampant.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:47:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Welcome back!

Gaza is the beggining of the end of the Jewish state.
There will be more land going back to the Nazis.
There will be MORE BOMBS, NOT LESS.
When will we Jews ever learn?

We are not an "AM Kshei Oref", we are a bunch of clowns parading as tough guys.

I wonder if the Mexicans and the Canadians were bombing the crap out of us,if we would be returning land to them.

Jews are different.Say a few nice words to us, feed Sharon a few cows for dinner, and anything goes.

We are at the most dangerous time of our existence since World War Two.

They smell blood.

Do not be fooled, the traditional Christian Churches hate our guts, and the right wing churches will attempt to get rid of us as soon as Israel will be at it's knees.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:47:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...


You're so right. At this rate it's over. The Israelis have lost the will to fight and couldn't give two shi*s about the country. They are more interested in travelling to Asia, seeing the "world" and working in electronic stores (that was in the 80s) and restaurants in Chutz L'Aretz. Many who are in the army don't even have one percent of the passion their predecessors had. And even then, with a ruthless army they needed Nissim. Kal V'Chomer now...

Am Echad,

Bechina? Wow! You really brought me back...

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 7:01:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I am trying to look at our "matzev" from a global perspective.

We are leaderless.

It's like the wild west, the sheriff,is as crooked as the black hat bad cowboys.(black hat, I just thought of that)

Even the MO do not have a charismatic leader to lead the MO.

The Right, well you get the picture, feh!

Now this absolute sell out in Israel, leaves me to see history repeating itself.

Remember the so called gedolim during the war, even R'Elchonon, was paralyzed.He could have saved himself, his yeshivah and thousands of other Yiden that looked to him for direction.


It just feels that it's de javu all over again.

The asher yatzer gedolim are telling us to give up land.

Our sechel tells us they are being bought out by government money to their mosdos.

I feel lost!!!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 7:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Reform Jew I Think said...

I was brought up Reform and I guess I fall in the category of a child who was kidnapped away from Judaism, from what I understand. I have been trying to educate myself in Jewish matters, though I am in my early 50's. My wife and I have started lighting candles and making kiddush etc. I would like to learn more but I must confess that reading some of this stuff is very disconcerting. This, together with some of the "instruction" in Judaism I have been receiving has caused me to have great doubts. For instance, just as a starter, here are some of the things that have been presented to me which have been referenced right here on this blog:

1. In Monsey New York, a fish talked and gave a class in Jewish law. They then cut up the fish and ate it on Shabbos.

2. The Lubavitcher Rebbe did not die; he is alive and living underground for reasons that have not been clearly explained to me.

3. A woman is required to cover her hair, but if the wig is from India or other country where idol worship is prevalent, the wig must be burnt.

4. I should be careful not to walk between two women, two dogs, or two pigs. (This one was real popular with my wife.)

5. Though I have been married more than twenty years, I am forbidden to look at a certain part of my wife's body. When we are making love and I am in that general vicinity, it is a good idea to keep my eyes closed. (My wife also liked that one.)

6. When I told one of my teachers that I was going to take the afternoon off and visit the Metropolitan Musuem of Art, I was told this was forbidden and I was most especially forbidden to take a look at any art featuring nudity or sculpture.

7. I was instructed to break the cross off the king's "head" on my expensive and cherished chess set.

8. I was told that it is an utter waste of time to read any books. It is also forbidden to go to college. (I gathered from this I should be ashamed of my degree from the University of Virginia.)

9. I was instructed that it is forbidden for me to continue to pursue martial arts, which I do to keep in shape.

While I started out interested and even excited to learn about my heritage, I now find myself asking: Where are you guys, meaning the Orthodox, coming from? What happened to spirituality? Has everyone in the Orthdox world lost their common sense? Or is everyone else nuts?

My wife and I are at a crossroads, if you will excuse the expression, and unless I find something more intelligent and meaningful than the bizzare notions that have been presented to me, I am afraid that I am going to have one hell of a mid-life identity crisis.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 7:33:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Dear Reform Jew, I think NOT,

I apologize if you were offended by the reference to "tinok shenisba".

It is an expression I use with great love to all our Jewish brothers and sisters who are studying Judaism.

My reference to it was for explaining the halacha, that technically, you can not be responsible for something you are unaware of.

I have spent years learning with our fellow Jews who did not grow up in religious homes.

I could and did say often, that I don't believe that I would be able to make that effort if I was raised in a non-religious home.

Regarding the references of the items you find ridiculous, they are just that.






Tuesday, August 09, 2005 8:09:00 PM  
Anonymous reform jew I think said...

Dear UO:
No need to apologize. I wasn't the least offended by the "tinok sh'nishba" characterization. I think it is fine and not offensive in the least. However, I was hoping to have some of my concerns addressed here. Here are a few others:

I can't fathom why a group of Chassidic rabbis would be involved in an organization with Yasser Arafat and the PLO, which murdered thousands of Jews over a thirty-year period. I have seen photographs of these gentlemen, dressed in Chassidic garb, gathered in mourning at Arafat's shrine. Can someone explain this to me? Even the most Reform of rabbis, (and I realize that most, if not all of them, are ignoramuses when it comes to actual Jewish knowledge) would never NEVER show respect to a Jew murderer like Arafat. It is so discouraging, and it appears that no one has any real answers.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 8:30:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Dear Reform,

The answer is complex,but I will try to summarize.

1-As long as Moshiach has not come, there is no holiness to the land.
2-A state run by secular Jews in Israel is preventing the coming of Moshiach.
3-The dismantling of this secular state is required,by all means possible, even if Jews get killed.
4-Arafat was God's emmisary(not my God),in bringing about Moshiach.

That's the ugly truth about those folks that call themselves Jews.

They are a scourge on all humanity.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 8:48:00 PM  
Anonymous reform jew I think said...

Utterly bizarre and incoherent. I guess Jews have cults also. I;ll bet you dollars to doughnuts that the Arabs gave these guys money and some fake respect and THAT was their real motivation, not some hocus pocus third rate philosophy. It's funny the kinds of things you learn when you start eating kosher! So much is NOT kosher that looks kosher!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 9:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


You are missing one element of Neturei Karta (Ymach shmom) and Satmar. They believe that even if Israel would be run by a religious government, it is still forbidden. They took this out of a hagadata gemara in kesubos. Not one Jewish leader from the time of the gemara until today ever paskened from this gemara. .I guess Reb Yollish thought he knew more than the Rambam, Shulchan Aruch and every other great leader.

You are absolutely correct about the lack of leadership. No one has leaders. The yeshiva world is being replaced by young assholes with frocks and up-hats. The chasidishe world is huge a fraud. The Sephardim are either flocking to the Ashkenazi shmucks or they are going to some great great great grand son four times removed of a carpet flyer for some old bread sticks. MO, is either turning black or going wayyyy left. Take a look at the Meimad party in Israel (its like Shimon Peres with a Yarmulka). The current chief rabbis of Israel have no balls to come out with an opinion on the disengagement. Avadya Yosef will do anything for money and a new car for his son. We have no one!! All we have is G-d. In the end we will all see G-d’s miracles (Even Satmar). “Rabot machshavot bilev ish vaazas hashem he takum” We are truly at very shvach times

Am Yisrael Chai!!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 11:21:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Not so reform Jew,
These guys actually gave money to Arafat.
There are no shortage of crazies in Judaism.
Am Echad is right, there can be no state of Israel until Moshiach comes, regardless of who runs it.

Suggestion for all commentators,
perhaps if you pick a web name, even a pseudonym like Moshe Pipick,or whatever, I and everyone else can address your comments directly to you.
Under anonymous, and there are many, it is difficult to respond.

These comments that have been posted, even though some comments were nasty(I left them in and deleted only the most profane),express a deep frustration with our religion.

As the internet grows and winds up in every home as the radio did, we the people will wield real power.

People in leadership positions are reading our comments.

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 11:52:00 PM  
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Wednesday, August 10, 2005 12:08:00 AM  
Anonymous sIM said...

Quite against your character to side with those right wing fanatics and Lubabs who have turned the issue of the Gaza withdrawal into a second holocaust.Why would you side with this 'new' torah that puts land (without kedushas eretz yisroel to boot!)above their own families well being?
In which 'beis medrash' did you hear this talk? In my opinion the settlers/messianics are no better than the crazy Neturei Karta, actually they are worse, they are the ones causing a lot of the friction with the arabs.
Re: your comment that the Lubavitcher was 'Menachem Mendel Shneerson was the most brilliant and all around person, in the last one hundred years.
Genius in Torah, great depth of understanding on all issues, the father of the kiruv and chesed movements as we know it.His ahavas yisroel was unmatched by all the KTANIM combined.'
Quite laughable.Out of the thousands of rabbonim you picked him out?While true, he was a gifted man, but have you studied his books?Does he come even close to someone like R'Shlomo Zalman Auerbachs 'havono'? and not as if R'Shlomo Zalman himself would be a contender,despite his greatness, I WAS just giving an example of a contemporary.It shocks me because you with your big mouth have been blasting everybody and than with your pick for the last hundred years shows your total lack of ignorance.R'Chaim Soloveichik, R'Chaim Ozer, R'Chaim Heller.....all meaningless to you, just because a cult has been hell bent on dumbing down Judaism by introducing mediocrity as the 'ultimate' depth in jewish study.
And btw, what Chesed organizations have Chabad been at the forefront of????None!!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:06:00 AM  
Blogger Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky said...

By the grace f G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
"Un-Orthodox Jew said...

You seem to be totally gone.
Please do not continue in this path, you are in for great hurt .

Thousands of the Rebbe's followers have left Yiddishkeit after he actually died.

Do you think he is still alive?

My best wishes that you return to your senses and realize you have been lied to.

12:13 PM "

It's interesting that such a "Rambam scholar" "one who graduated one of the best yeshivas with honors " as you claim to be doesn't remember the Rambam's statements about the proper understanding of the words of Agadah this of course aplies to "eternal life of Moshiach" issue it's obvious that if you understand the Rebbe's words this way without thinking your mind operates on the level of dimion which is a level of ben chamesh le'mikra who is taught according to Rashi "Yad Hashem Mamash" this also explains why you can't make or answer a logical arguement and instead resort to constant temper tantrums like the "5 year old child" that you are. Grow up!
Brocha veHatzlocha!
Ariel Sokolovsky
Long Live our master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:15:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

The government PUT the settlers there with the promise that we would never give it up.
Ten thousand of our mishpocho are being thrown on the streets.
Shuls,yeshivas, mikvas,bais hakvoros and peoples last ounce of dignity are being destroyed.
Have you no compassion?There was a solemn promise from Jew to Jew that this would never happen.
White yarmulke or black,if we Jews can not trust our own, who can we trust?
This is the beggining,you will see that the bombings and murder will increase, rachmona litzlan.
Since when would any country remove its own citizens from land they claimed their own?

The Lubavitcher Rebbe in my humble opinion was the greatest chochom alive in the last one hundred years.
His path for his chassidim is something else.
Read his Torahs and his sichas,his amkus was second to none.
Nevertheless, he stumbled and left a religion that is in direct contrast to the established ikkrim of Judaism.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:44:00 AM  
Anonymous sim said...

Unorthodox, thanks for being candid about your opinion of the Rebbe.I don't mean it in a cynical way, it just helps me understand you a bit better.As for me, well, in my opinion anybody who can compare an shtickel torah from the Ohr Someach, with its brilliance and depth in a very concise manner, to the long winded sichos with some good questions and some very long winded and strange answers has either:Not studied either, or cannot understand them.Correct me if I'm wrong, but outside the world of Lubavitch, where the Rebbes 200+ books are studied (and little else)his scholarship had/has basically zero affect on the larger orthodox world.IT MAY be an Artscroll bias, but more logical that the yeshiva world viewed his scholarship as a lot of 'knowledge' with little tangible 'scholarship.Basing oneself on an objective opinion of Lubavitch's own rabbis/talmidei chachomim(or lack therof)one would have to agree, that the Rebbe either was not a very good teacher or his teachings were not what you, Unorthodox jew are making it out to be.I know of practically no Lubavitch rabbis of any special erudition.(there may be some exceptions, but lubabs are considered to be quite ignorant)All this from chassidim of the most brilliant mind in the last hundred years?I think not.
The above is just my honest opinion, I'm not looking to mock anybody, just telling it the way I see it.I mean this as no personal insult of the late Rebbe and don't feel like answering misguided posters who see it as such

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:09:00 AM  
Anonymous sim said...

Btw, those 9000 people who are are being withdrawn from Gaza are going to nicely compensated and new housing will be given to them.Stop the dumb crocodile tears, the fact of the matter is that they basically got housing for almost free due to goverment subsidies, (and very nice houses)and were costing the goverment huge ammounts in soldiers lives and millions upon millions of dollars.For what, so that 9 thousand people can live on land equal to that of which a million and a half arabs had to live on.?
Do you realize the insanity of this?Do you realize that in 15 years from now, Gaza will have 3 million, starving, unemployed (and therefore)bloodthirsty arabs?Is this situation tennable?Would you like your kids guarding this insanity while in the army?Give it up already, your rabid rightwing rhetoric against returning Gaza holds no water.(though, living off the fat of the American land, far away from the actual danger makes it easy to preach.It's also a 'feel good' type of thing.It makes you say: 'hey,I'm a good person, I CARE about the disengagement I care about jews,,,blah, blah........)

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 8:59:00 AM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


A leader is not only someone that has the deepest level of learning. A leader is someone who possesses unbelievable overall skills. The Lubavicher Rebbe transformed the face of Judaism. He was the most famous and influential leader in the last 100 years. The mesiras nefesh of man shiluchim are second to none. Unlike the Rabbis that we know that do things for pride and self interest, these guys really rough it up. What fun is it to raise a family in Thailand or in India? How about spending the rest of your life in Utah or Alabama? They are there to help anyone including Litvish people who mock them ther whole life. You asked what Chessed organization they started. Who started the BT movement? Who went abroad to help innocent souls in the 1950’s? Russia during the cold war was mocked at by Lakewood!!

While there may be some talmid chochom in some shtiebel in Bnie Brak or Mea Shearim that knew how to learn better than the rebbe. That is not necessarily considered leadership. Unfortunately, most great geniuses are inaudible and inaccessible to the public. It is said that the Rogachover had the brain of two Einsteins. However, he was not a man for the masses. When R’ Kotler when to talk to him in learning, he told the Rogachover that he is a “baal habus” from Kltezk. So the Rogachover told him that for a” baal habbus” his learning is ok! We all know that R’ Kotler was a huge talmid chacham, but next to the Rogachover he was a ‘baal habuus” As UO said, it is a complete shame what happened to Lubavich today

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 10:37:00 AM  
Anonymous sim said...

Nothing 'happened' to Lubavitch 'today'
Great rabbis warned about this happening many years ago.The Rebbe paid them no heed.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 12:22:00 PM  
Anonymous Thinking Jew said...

On the subject of Gaza: While I wholly agree that the Arabs "smell blood", and will try to characterize the withdrawal as thier military victory, there is no logical reason to think that this is the "beginning of the end." In truth, no one knows what the future holds, but it is a fact that in recent history, Israel has given up land at different intervals, and does not appear to have suffered greatly because of it. The enemies of Israel are not going to go away. The settlers of Gaza, as the writer above wrote, are being nicely compensated, so one can not really characterize this as Jews throwing other Jews out of their homes. Jewish history is replete with tragedies; let us hope that the Gaza withdrawal is not the first step in yet another Jewish horror story. I personally do not think that it is and observe that everytime there is a major change in the Jewish world, people come out of the woodwork forecasting Armeggedon. There is a rationale for removing a few thousand Jews from the midst of a million savages. It is not the pie in the sky Oslo peace plan; it is a calculated political/military retreat which hopefull will bear fruit. But only G-d knows the future.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Yudi said...

"There is a rationale for removing a few thousand Jews from the midst of a million savages."
The same rationale exists for removing Jews from the Middle East entirely.
As to sim, "sim no yodcho tachas yereichi"

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:22:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Sim and Thinking Jew,

I called the Rebbe the greatest "chacham", not talmud chochom, although he was a huge one.

The vast knowledge and the depth and breadth of his world view was unmatched, period.This is coming from a guy who thinks the movement has gone crazy and blames it on the Rebbe.That's the shame of all this.

Regarding the Gaza issue,we as Jews have to look at it from a historical perspective.

Yes, some setllers are whacko, that's not the point.
The distinct point is you DO NOT GIVE UP JEWISH LAND WITHOUT A PEACE DEAL,as meaningless as their words or contracts would be.
I believe that Gaza was crazy to hold on to, but to give it up for nothing?
Sharon could have played hard ball, no piece of land without peace.
He was in a hurry to make his mark on history, he is dead wrong, and history will prove me right.

This is about Jews looking for love in all the wrong places.
Sharon,mark my words, will go down in history as another Neville Chamberlain.
We never learn!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:24:00 PM  
Anonymous sim said...

Unorthodox, you seem to 'relish' being proven right about Gaza.You know.....that's another one of the reasons I cannot stomach right wing/lubavitch rhetoric.Would you want to see blood spilled, chas vesholom??????So you can be 'proven right'?
I don't 'know' the future.Me thinks that the disengagement may be the way to go.
Btw, the Lubavitcher was dead wrong, regarding the peace with Egypt(though his minnions are still preaching doom, till this day)
A small reminder:Mishnechrav bais hamikdosh nitno nevua, leshoitim velektanim (bovo basrah 12)Nobody 'knows' the future, beware the people promising doom aND the people promising an end to all hostilities, both are probably wrong.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:08:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

This is the first time that I've had the opportunity to come across your web-site.
I began reading, and was mesmerized by the amount of anger that is bottled up inside you. It's as if you've had the worst possible childhood ever. Many of us have been to the yeshiva world and noted the hypocracy practiced by some of those who have wormed their way into positions of influence. Just because some people make themselves heard when they have naught to offer, it dosn't make our Gedolim fraudulent. Nor does it have any effect on the written or oral torah as far as authenticity.
I don't think that you are qualified to render decisions as to who is a gadol,manhig, or talmid chochom.
I also noticed the effect you are having on a reformed jew who is searching for his jewish identity.

The real question is, Do you believe in G-d and his holy Torah?

P.S. It's interesting how you've determined a place in Hell for every gadol, but you seem to believe there isn't a place reserved for you.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Yudi said...

The whole point of a blog is to give its creator a forum to vent. If corruption in the chareidi world does not bother you, Yaakov, then don't bother reading this blog.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:42:00 PM  
Anonymous that was funny said...


Re: Sim

Good one! :)

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:47:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

Well Yudi, there's a great difference between venting about corruption, and demonstrating ones personal dementia.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Yudi said...

I like this blog for two reasons
1) UO has a lot of inside dish
2) he writes well.
He might be a meshugane, but does that detract from what he says? he is not asking anyone to take his word for anything. On the contrary, he brings many specific examples to back up his claims. If there is another way to understand these stories, I would love to hear your take on them.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Am Echad, a Lubavitch Chassid, may indeed make some relevant points and salient defenses regarding the present state of Lubavitch Chassidus, but he goes too far in negating the accomplishments of other great Jewish leaders, and the Jewishness of his more mainstream bretheren in the Yeshiva world.

His innane comments about RAV Elya Svei is inappropriate. RAV Elya Svei is not his "buddy" or "equal," nor should he negate the close to fifty years worth of valuable bnei Torah (some learning, some working) who emerged from his Yeshiva as "lesser" contributions to the overall Jewish world than shluchim. If individuals like Ariel are shluchim, their sacrifices are worthless because sacrifices of crazy people yield no results. If they could not get a decent job, that should also be taken into account. Finally, a lubavitcher helping one become a baal teshuva does not justify his intorduction of strictly Lubavitch ideas because one need not know a thing about the "Mittler" or "Alter" Rebbes to be the next Gadol HaDor (Hence it is indeed notable that they are so emphatic in traducing specifically Lubavitch precepts into their kiruv work. It is more important to teach a blatt Gemara than a page of Tanya to the uninitiated. Some Chassidim may not recognize this, and I will respectuflly disagree with them on this point). The same goes for his overall inability to recognize the achivements of leaders like R' Chaim Ozer who did more for Klal Yisroel than his deceased Rebbe. This is not to say his Rebbe z"l was not a great leader. But there is no substantive or meritorious value in spewing forth the "history" he was indoctrinated with in yeshiva. For example, ALL Litvaks did NOT go to work on Shabbos. I am sure if there was a study, we would find that just as much Chassidim did the same, in relative proportion.

In addition, it is inappropriate to claim that Chassidus "saved" Yiddishkeit. The gross failure of Chassidus is evidenced today in nearly every street of Williamsburg and Boro Park. Just because one looks as though he is frum (as though wearing a shtreimel etc. is "Jewish" in the first place!) does not mean he is religious, in any sense of the word. Just reading the blogs of chassidim today show that they are no better than the most outlandish left wing modern orthodox jew in hashkafa, and, indeed, in practice. I dare submit that Hasidic Rebel and his minions are in fact worse off than their modern orthodox counterparts. That chevra is literally not orthodox, at all. And they are worse than the modern orthodox, because, by virtue of their surroundings and background, they should KNOW better, too. Lubavitchers are far better off than other chassidim in this regard, but then again, nebachantin like Ariel show that Lubavitchers, too, have a considerable "peckele" of their own. (May he be chozer b'Teshuva).

History proves that the Lithuanians had what it takes to remain religious thoughout all the upheavals they encountered because they withstood as much if not more prosecution than their Chasidish counterparts. So long as they were not being killed en masse, they produced the greatest scholars, and most noble tzadikim. Granted Haskalla was very powerful there, but that was because they struck wherever they found the greatest minds. Revisionist Chassidish Historians may like to think otherwise, but maskilim had an agenda to bring about a revolution, and they ruthlessly carried out their agenda with extraordinary efficiency wherever they decided to take root. Chassidim responded by being prost. Litvaks may have lost some, but thanks to their unyielding stance in learning Torah, they produced the Gedolei HaDor. Similarly, the Gaon was the unequaled tzadik of his time. He was certainly the greatest scholar of his time, and many of his concerns about the Chassidim are sadly vindicated by the present state of Chassidus today. He chose not to meet the Baal HaTanya. And its the same unjustified chassidish chutzpa that somehow relents on "what might have been." Because he was the greatest tzadik and talmid chochom of his generation, I trust that his decision was ultimately correct. Some may choose to think otherwise, but it should never be done at the expense of honesty and historical correctness. Finally, Rav Shach may not have been "accepted" as a maagid shiur at Lubavitch because he was not a chossid, but I doubt one sane individual with half his honesty and level of self-introspection (for which he was famous) would warn klal Yisroel as he did as a result. It is appropriate to remember also that Rav Hutner, R' Ahron, and R' Yaakov expressed similar concerns about the Rebbe's actions far earlier than Rav Shach did.

Today's blogs illustrate the stark reality of the Chassidish lie: They may dress frum, but they go to brothels and movies. They may call themselves "pious ones," but their lives simply cannot match it. In fact, chassidim are more likely than any other "Jewish" denomination, including conservative and reform, to end up in jail. [Again, this is not as to Lubavitch, but to chassidim].

If you find a Jewish thief, chances are he is a chossid. If you find a Jew dealing in drugs, chances are he is a chossid. If you find a Jew cheating on taxes, he is probably a chossid. Did you hear about a "rabbi" being cuaght in a brothel? Guess what, he is probably a chossid.

It is wrong for Chassidim to claim that they saved Judaism when they themselves cannot keep their pants up. Am Echad is incorrect in his assertion that Chassidus in any way saved Judaim, and should respect the more than 2/3ds of Lithuanian Jewery who were killed by the Nazis by recognizing their deaths, and appropriately rearranging the frame of reference around which he posits that all Livaks were not shomer shabbos.

Most of us are familiar with the hakdama of Koveitz Shiurim, where R' Elchanan is quoted as saying very soon before he was killed that it appears as though they were being slaughtered for the sake of their bretheren in America--and that they should sanctify their thoughts lest it raise a shaila of piggul. I dare submit that their deaths along with the other 6 million had a far more impressive impact on the incredible developments the Klal made in the past 50 years than the ancillary contributions of the Chassidim in general, or of the Lubavitcher Rabber z"l, in particular.

We have a gaping whole in our tradition and mesorah. And we must be steadfast in our love and learning Torah, and concern for our fellow Jews to clear ourselves of all the rishoim did to us.

May the Ribbono Shel Olam help us continue to grow in Torah, and appropriately serve Him.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Dr. Cohen said...

UO is on prozac

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:16:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

Yudi:It's kind of difficult to back up ones comments when one speaks of those who are superior to us in every aspect in yiras shomayim, intelligence, and piety. Including the likes of the Ari z"l, The Baal Shem tov, and R' Aaron Kotler among the few that our host trashed as if they were common trailer park trash.
There seems to be no difference between chassidim, Litvaks, and rishonim in his diatribes.
Who's next, R' Akiba?

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:25:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

Yudi:By the way the Chofetz Chaim is always quoting the Shulchan Aruch Harav. Dosn't that give credense to chassidus?

P.S. I'm not a chassid in the technical term, but I see the beauty in their subservience to Hakadosh Boruch Hu.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:30:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


The Chafetz Chaim quoting the Shulchan Aruch HaRav shows one thing: He was a Gadol B'Torah. It was not his chassidus that made him a Gadol B'Torah, it was his ameilus b'Torah that made him a Gadol B'Torah. Whether one decides to also look to his chassidus is another story, but, as I wrote above, one can be the next Gadol HaDor and not learn one word of Chassidus.

Try not to confuse the beauty of Chassidus with the beauty of Judaism. The Chovos HalVovos, Ramban, Rabbeinu Bachay, and the Gaon all write about the depth and wonder it is to be a Jew. The Chassidim merely popularized some of those ideas. They also added several new ideas that were not in the Rishonim. Those ideas are chassidus are not neccessarily beautiful or enthralling at all. And as I am sure you noted from posts by Ariel Sokolovsky, they do not neccessarily make you a good Jew.

In the end, it is up to you, but you should look at the classics before you categorize particularly chassidus as beautiful.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:35:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Elya svei is a terrorist!! he did nothing for am yiroel!!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:44:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

I try to keep abreast of the classics, and I find that I'm nowhere equal to commence comprehending the greatness of people that lived 20 years ago, let alone the besht, or the rishonim.
Also, if the the Chofetz Chaim didn't believe in the Shulchan Aruch Harav as a holy person in every aspect, I doubt he would of quoted him.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I understand your feelings against him, but it is hard to justify your statements against metzios: Like I wrote above, 50 years worth of students is a formidable task. Give him at least the same level of credit you give Norman Lamm!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I said he was holy because he was a Gado B'Torah! Who cares about his Chassidishe stuff? Besides, much of what he wrote is similar to Nefesh HaChaim, so he was not completely off. The bottom line is that he quoted in the main part non-chassidim, depsite the relative availibility of other chassidish talmidei chachomim of the time. For example, I do not remember him ever quoting Eglei Tal. I am not sure, but I do not beleive that Divrei Chaim is quoted either. It could just be that Shulchan HaRav is unique in that it is set up as a compendium . . .no one, however, would dare say that the Shulchan Aruch HaRav was not written by a god fearing talmid chochom, because he was a gado b'Torah.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Forgive me, but I am begining to suspect you are a chossid. . .
The point is not in comprehension, it is recognized that the values of our tradition are in the Torah and the Rishonim who explain it. Chassidus is really just a very, very small fragment in comparison to the treasure houses of Rashi and the Ramban.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Yudi said...

i've been reading UO for a while, but even I was amazed how he passeled the whole chasidus. It's probably getting harder for UO to shock any of us. I think he should stop trying so hard; maybe post less often.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If reb Elchanan were alive today, he would be hated by many people

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People would hate R' Akiva too. Who cares about what the amei ho'oretz feel toward g'dolei b'torah--they would hate him because their ignorance in torah causes them to hate those who know it (like R' Akiva said).

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Lazer said...

Elya Svei is a real small minded guy. Its one thing for R' Shach to have a fiery mouth against what he felt was wrong, but Elya Svei!!!! WHo the hell is he? What has he written? Has he ever helped jews??? Did he do anything but yell?? IS there even one nice story about him? He runs a boutique Yehsiva in Philadelphia that produces anti-semites!!!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:56:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


Now that you mention R'Akiva, was he not the one who encouraged the Bar Kochba/Moshiach movement?

How many Jew went to slaughter on the word and assurrance of the words of that gadol hador?????

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Exactly, people would have hated R' Akiva nowadays. He was the Gado HaDor, though. We all know and recognize that. PLEASE do not tell me that we are questioning the tannaim and amoraaim now!!! Let us just accept thing we don't understand.

As far as that comment about RAV Elya Svei is concerned, he did publish his Chiddushei Torah in journals, and his talmidim and sons-in-law are some of the greatest up and coming magiddei shiurim of his day. He was a great amkan and an incredible baal mesorah in imparting his derech halimud. He did this for thousands of bnei Torah who are ehrlich, God fearing Baalei Batim and Maggidei Shiurim. Like I wrote above, it really should not be so difficult to think objectively, and appreciate those contributions. . .

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:02:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Dr. Cohen,

Not only do I take prozac, I take valium, lithium,paxil,xanax,zoloft and anything else I can get my hands on to calm me down.

Can you imagine what my blog would look like if I DID NOT TAKE TRANQUILIZERS?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rav Shach trusted Rav Svei both implicitly and explicitly as the one who would carry on his torch in America. If you respect Rav Shach, you should respect his decision in doing that, too.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:05:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

I think that we are confusing a bunch of charlatans with the real deal. It seems to me that UO has run out of material to create good shock effect and has had to gain notoriety by spewing miserable anti-gedolim remarks.
I also believe that he is probably unsuccessful in many of his endeavors, and is using this forum to vent a miserable consience.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree that he is way overboard and overly conclusory in the vast preponderances of his blogs. He is doing that because the central issue is of otherwise little moment and would not spur any substantive debate. . .

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:10:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I have just begun to fight.

Of course, if you can't handle the fact that you have been sold a bill of goods that doesn't quite add up, then you should go back to the yeshiva you came from for a few more doses of BS.

Maybe, just maybe, the more exposed you get, like me, the more realistic you will see that we were swindled.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I await the day where he bemoans the fact that so many of the people that I personally know in Teaneck, for example, cannot translate Chumash, and waste their teenage years doing things with girls that are not so . . . frum?

His is a critique on the Frum. He has to amplify their chisranos precisely because theirs are not as glaring as those of their leftist counterparts.

I respect his attempts and hope the dialogue they engendered will bring about whatever level of change is neccessary to form even truer bnei torah. Until then, there are some excellent--albeit very long--comments that should be commented upon . . .

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Reform Jew I Think said...

I must say I find all this discussion about Chassidus v Lithuanian Judaism fascinating. There is far more verve and depth of thought in the Orthodox world regarding things Jewish than in the intellectually sterile and I would submit bankrupt Reform "rabbi" community. On the other hand, there appears to be a fair degree of 'weirdness' (for lack of a better term) in the thought patterns of some Orthdodox people. Certain rules seem to have no bearing to reality. For instance, I was told by a Chassidic rabbi that it is a bad idea to let a boy ride a bicycle. Why? Because he might be sexually stimulated by the movement of his genitals against the bicycle seat while peddling. Well, I rode a bike as a kid and as an adult love taking long rides on Sundays on my bicycle. Never once in all my years was I sexually stimulated by the bicycle seat, nor have I ever heard of this. I have to conclude the rabbi is out of his tree on this one, but apparently they have a rule in their community (Belz, I think) that boys may not ride bikes for aforesaid reason. That is simple lunacy in my humble opinion and its the type of thing that is in all honesty a huge turnoff. Luncay is always going to be a turnoff. Now, I did not write these words because I want someone to defend the position. I would surmise from what I have read here that at least some of you don't agree with the type of thinking that is based on a complete fiction. But what I find disturbing is that this fiction, with all its various levels of meaning, has found its way into at least one Jewish community and has become enshrined as Jewish law. Given that, I have to wonder about various other Jewish laws and their validity. Well, sorry to have prattled on and I hope I have not taken up too much of your time, but this seems like a pretty good forum and in all honesty I consider it a great privilege to be able to carry on a dialogue with you fellows.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reform Jew,
You raise great points, but they are likely to be addressed with geater acuity at ohrsomayach.com than here. Not everyone on this blog is a rabbi . . .

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:18:00 PM  
Anonymous Lazer said...

I like vicoden and percocet!!!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:19:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

I went through much anger and contemplation many years ago(as far as some of the topics that you cover are concerned). I'm glad that I've come to the realization that the fault lies within oneslf. as of then I have seeked and found many people who are genuine and unassuming in their recognizance of Hakadosh Boruch Hu. Much I have gleaned from conversing with them, and it has unburdened my heart from all the nonsense.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:21:00 PM  
Anonymous Reform Jew I Think said...

OK, if this is not the correct forum, then I will try the one you mention. Thank you and be well.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

However, if I were to put a stab at this one, I would suggest that the Belzers are merely making an application of preexisting law, and not fashioning new law. The Torah forbids one from arousing inappropriate thoughts at most times. This guy apparently believes that riding a bike would do the same. I would agree that his is an incorrect application, then, of that law. As for where does one draw the line is really predicated upon the depth and breadth of one's knowledge of the law. The key point is to learn the Torah. Have a Rebbe. With time, you will be able to understand some of the issues with real clarity. Try Ohr Somayach.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:23:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Not one of you have disputed all the FACTS on my blog.

You go into your own rants and raves.


Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...

Lithuanian’s definitely had the highest degree of ahavos hatora and they produced some of the greatest learners and thinkers. However, they created an elite society. That old dogma is going down the tube. Take a look at Telz yeshiva. No one wants their children to have to suffer thru those retched hard core tough years. The long sedarim, the long zmanim, no vacation, no pleasure (besides for the mikva), and long boring sholosh seuda drahsas bring back nightmares former talmidim. Most Yeshivas are meant for the elite, and the oilam is a golam. Chasidus was a savior in that aspect. Additionaly, there are plenty of horny guys in Lakewood that frequent strip clubs on Route 9. It is not only reserved for Chasidim. Furthermore, everyone has teives!! “Ein apatrupes learyaos” The only difference is that when a yeshiva guy puts on cap and a t-shirt, he doesn’t look like a rabbi so the newspapers wont write rabbi busted for this!!! Moron!!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:29:00 PM  
Anonymous jack said...


nobody has disputes with yuk yuk or Yankel Pfeffercorn for good reason.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:30:00 PM  
Anonymous Reform Jew I Think said...

OK, at the risk of being banished, I ask the following: Given that there is a principle in Judaism that we should avoid sexual stimulation in inappropriate forums, if the rabbi has the clearly mistaken belief that riding a bicycle can arouse a person sexually,then how do we know that other "applications" of religious and even legal principles are also not wrong? I have heard the most inane discussions of mundane topics by rabbis who apparently are completely ignorant of the way things work. If a person has no real clue about the world, how can such a person make rules about our behavior in that world? this was one of my original questions here concerning secular education. It appears to me that people without basic knowledge of the world should not be making religious rules and expecting others to follow them. How can a man with a very limited horizon of knowledge possibly be in a position to lead others, either religiously or otherwise? Sorry... I will move on to OhrSomayach as suggested.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...

I think that I can dispute some of your theories. However, I would rather do it one and one without the interruption of lemming idiots.

Feel free to email me - seriousadd@gmail.com

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:32:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Right on, Jack!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:33:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


Yuk YUk, LOL, we have true Boro Parker in the house.

Many people have diputes with Yankel Pfeffercorn over the tapes at brisim!!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:34:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

Am Echad:

By calling others idiots, you dont seem to have strong debating points

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:35:00 PM  
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Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:36:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

I've seen yankel pfeffercorn in action at some brissim and I think that UO can create a whole article why it's the gedolim's fault that he is mentally deficient

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:44:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I do not understand why you have to undermine your arguments by apply words like "moron" or worse to respectful responses to your comments. Nevertheless, I will countenance your comments appropriately.

I do not understand why you write that heavy learning is too hard core. That is just not true. Many of my friends learn very hard, for many hours during the day, even if they work. I suppose your understanding is more atmospheric and/or contextual in nature than objective: where you look for devoted bnei Torah, you will find them.

Even if one were to accept your contention that the oilam is a golem (overly conclusory and overreaching as it is), no movement is meaningful if it is makes a bunch of "idiots" without any devotion to, and accomplishments in, learning. In my unreconstructed mind, any movement that underscores the primacy of learning is fundamentally unJewish, as egalitarian and compassionate as it may otherwise (and, dare I add, decietfully) appear.

I never heard of yeshiva bachurim visiting such a club. I wonder if you were merely conjecturing or if your sources are prejudiced in this regard. Nevertheless, even if I was to accept in arguendo that virtual throngs of bachurim (again, just to remain proportional to the amount of documented chassidish evildoers) who learn in Yeshiva do such things, it is not to the same degree in shiur--in eichus or kammus. It is also the volume of chassidim, as opposed to bnei torah, in jail speaks volumes of its inordinate level of failure. One may accept a rotton apple in a bunch, but if several or even many apples of that bunch were rotton, it would be an entire different matter. Most significantly, the very fact that Chassidus categorically accepts their "golems," as it were, without encourageing wholesale devotion to "hardcore" learning, and fails so pitifully in its attempts to structure for them a relatively meaningful Jewish sense of existence speaks volumes for the need to encourage more substantive modifications: Torah must be learned, it must be learned with great exertion, and it must be done by all of us, no matter our resources, intelligence or time, to the absolute best of our abilitiy.

I accept that you may disagree (here I do not write respectfully), though I do not believe you are correct.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:46:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

unfortunately yeshiva bachurim are soketimes very misguided, and they do foolish things the contents of which that will be left unsaid.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

like i told you before, this is nto the right forum for your questions. suffice it to say, that applications are not only based on objective but also subjective factors. places as sheltered as belz may, for example, yiels arousal in such instances--it just does not apply to people who are not as sheltered.
i really think you should speak to an orthodox rabbi, if you are in fact reform.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Jack said...


because something dosn't turn you on it may not necessaraly apply to others..................especially people who are sheltered from the opposite gender.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:57:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

You have an important argument
The fact that one may be a genius in Torah(may), does not qualify him for anything else.

Would you go to a scientist for marriage counseling?

The Right would have you believe that their genius rabbis are qualified IN EVERY FIELD to make rational judgements!

I say, they are out of their minds.

At the very most, they can deal with spiritual issues.

That is not to say that a great rabbi can not be a genius in other worldy issues.

Take Rabbi J.B. Soloveichik,zt"l, he never would have advised anyone in medical matters.

Today's chassidic rebbes, have no problem in playing God, and advising people on the prudence of making certain serious, life and death decisions.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you were offering that we engage in dialogue via email so that you may "dispute" my theories, I am forced to respond with some level of disbelief, especially after surveying the comments you have made to others. If you can prove that you have self-respect and an open mind, however, I will more than gladly help.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:01:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

If you go to Ohr Someach, come back and say hello.
Let us know how you are doing!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:02:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Am Echad,
Go for it in public,private e-mails are for sissys.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:04:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I think that although you attended a yeshiva, you were absent during the most important lessons.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As I wrote above, you are better off visiting ohr somayach. Not everyone on this blog is a rabbi. For the sake of showing you another view, however, I will add that we as religious jews believe that the torah stands at the ver fulcrum of existence and that it, be essence, contains all the secrets of the world. under this premise it has been an accepted practice since the begining of time to seek counsel from torah sages. these sages have shown to be as wise if not wise than the best of marriage counselors. furthermore, precisely because non jewish marriage counselors are simply out of tune with the needs and circumstances of religous jews, it is advisable that a jew only meets with another frum therapist. this is not your problem, naturally, but go to ohr somayach.

un-orthodox, please be careful as to how you overreact to people who are trying to better understand our faith. if directed properly, he certainly has the intelligence to understand the issues you are attempting to bring to the fore.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:05:00 PM  
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Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now quite the point I was making, but yes, I suppose am echad is a bit ironic.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

that shithead deserves it, though, particularly for the way he responds to intelligent writers

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:20:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

Using swearwords is a sign of deficient intelligence

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Am Echad said...


It has nothing to do with privacy. You can publish the entire dialogue. I would rather not get sidetracked with idiots and people who post as anonymous. Additionally, I challenge anyone in an intellectual debate via email, phone or face to face.

To the anonymous moron, I am not Lubavich. Lubavichers never heard of Elya Svei or any other Litvish headmaster. I am from Brooklyn and my last yeshiva was Mir in Jerusalem. Lubavichers don’t know anything out of their circles.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:28:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

To All Anonymous Right Wingers,

Your delusional concept of daas Torah, is driving the intelligent skeptics away.
Daas Torah is daas Torah, that is it!
They know nothing else, if they learned nothing else.
The gedolim you refer to, if anything,they are well versed in the Torah.
They know squat about anything else.
We all know or should know the hundreds if not thousands of contradictions in the Torah, to real world hard facts.

Do not create more confusion by claiming humans are infallible, regardless of the amount of knowledge one may have.

Humans can express an opinion at best, NO MORE!

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:44:00 PM  

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