Sunday, August 14, 2005

The Insane Boro Park Jew And Their Double Life

I am addressing this blog to the yeshivas, the rebbes and particularly to the rosh yeshivas that produced this human tinaf.

Let us take a good look what you guys did to Klal Yisroel over the last fifty years or so. You have transmitted your misery, and your "fake frum"behavior to generations.The proof is in the final product that you guys produced, and it aint pretty.

If you want to see the biggest , messed up , miserable Jew that walks on this planet, let's go and take a look inside the head and life of a Boro Parker.(many Flatbush guys included)

Typically, they dress in dark colors, and speak a yiddishized English.
Their kids go to Charedi yeshivas, and the boys wear payos.
They walk the walk and talk the talk.
They live for one reason only, which is to knock their neighbors eyes out with their worldly possessions.
They generally spend their summers in the Catskills.

There is a definite sub-class of Boro Parker, the guys without money.
They suffer terribly, because they are desperately trying to keep up with the Kohn's, and are in debt up to their eyeballs.
They are caught with their shiny pants down, at every turn.
They have to take the fancy cruises and vacations, but can't afford the tuitions.
They have their special "tuition suits", when they beg for a scholarship.
They drag out the suit and hat from their bar-mitzvah, and head on down to the yeshiva with their dignity in their tuchis.
Most of these guys would rather be dead.They have bitchy wives and in-laws, no matter what this putz does, it is not good enough for them.
This shmuck goes to sleep every night hoping that he does not wake up in the morning.

He has more kids then he ever wanted, but you can't be a member in this bozo club unless you have more than five kids.
This suffering idiot works his ass off every day, just to survive. His rebbe never said this was in store for him. He gives away tzedaka he doesn't have, the thieves that get the money are better off than he is.

He can't permit himself to stop and think," what the hell is going on"?, if he does, he's totally gone.
This poor slob, takes the subway to work, and pretends all is well.
He goes through the motions of being frum, but in his heart he hates every single shukle in shul, every parlor meeting for shnorrer mosdos, every single person that ever led him along this path.

This "drekfresser "has not had a bright day in his life.

He grays early, if he is not already bald.
He is overweight, and his wardrobe smells like crap.
He forces himself to get to shul, and preaches to his kids the same nonsesnse that he was fed.

Everything his rebbe or rosh yeshiva ever told him , he discovered is full of shit.
He walks around with a perpetual smile, but he is ready to kill someone at the drop of a black hat .
A typical fight with his wife winds up with her screaming at him, "shit zulsts du essen".
And that he does! Big time!

His kids bleed him to death for money he does not have.
If his kids are married, chances are he is supporting some dumb ,fat ,retarded behaima doing squat in a kollel somewhere.
He's screwed and has no idea what to do about it.

Then there are the ten percent of Boro Parkers who have money, or access to it.

They are in business stealing their brains out.
Whatever they do is crooked.
Many have done jail time, especially the guys in nursing homes, jewelry, trucking and government programs administration.

The lawyers among them, are gangsters. They don't need a license to lie and hurt people, but they went to school to get one anyway.
Many of them sport beards and payos.
They believe that they are geniuses, and they let everyone they come in contact with, know it.
They are NOT frum at all, they go to strip clubs, and watch pornography.
In the summer time( and whenever ), they are screwing around on their wives, who are in the Catskills.
They shtup their maids from South America, and many have sexually transmitted diseases. Some have contracted Aids from the zoinas they frequented.

A typical Shabbos in the mountains includes wearing the bekishes, shtreimels or if they are a bit more modern, just plain Armani black suits and hats.
They "do it "to their wives, because a mitzva is a mitzva.What other mitzva can you do in five seconds and get a little pleasure?

OK, comes motzei Shabbos, off with the black garb.Grease back those payos, curl up their beards, pull out that leather yarmulke, and let it rip.
No hotel, gambling casino or show is off limits to these chayas.

They daven in some shtibel, where the fat slob behaima at the front shtender is a bigger idiot than they can possibly imagine.This shmuck has no clue what he would do if for some reason he pissed off the "gvir".
So, he kishes tuchis like it was a bank book, a certificate of deposit, or a zoina.

People reading this must be saying that I'm nuts, a mad dog, a lunatic, and worse.
OK, let's get real.In your heart of hearts you know I am right.

If you live in Brooklyn, take a good look at the guys you interface with.
Read the newspapers. Check court records. Check out the supermarkets and see how many shaina Yiden are using food stamps.Visit some prisons, see how many guys are there that would never daven without a gartel. (F'D up SOB'S)

Speak to pediatricians that you may have as friends or family, find out how many babies are being born with drug addictions and sexually transmitted diseases.
No, not from the baalei tshuvas you miserable slobs, but from the yeshiva and chassidishe communities.
Speak to marriage therapists that you may have as friends or family, ask them what percentage of marriages are being destroyed because the yeshivishe husband is banging anything that moves.

When your home is burglarized, don't even bother going to the cops looking for your silver and jewelry, just take a stroll down Thirteenth Avenue, they will be on full display at the silver and jewelry stores, right there in the window.

On a TV talk show recently, hookers described these guys down to their filthy talis koton.(can't leave home without it).
It's not one or two guys, this is symptomatic of a tradition and a culture that failed miserably.

You know why?


Sub-consciously or consciously, they never bought the manure the fertilizer salesmen sold them.

They trudged along the scam yeshiva system that everyone seemingly bought into, only to grow old and realize they've been screwed over.

The yeshivas and the guys heading it, they have come to realize, are phony bastards.They will gouge the eyes out of your head, for a buck or less.

Who is going to teach them to fear G-d, if these guys' God is money?
They could not give a cholent bone that has been sucked dry, about you.
In matter of fact, if you don't give them money, they despise you.

They don't care if you are a cross-dresser or a tuchis shtupper ,as long as you are giving up the gelt.

When was the last time you saw a" poor guy" being honored at a dinner?

Look at some of the names on the yeshiva buildings.The biggest chazer fressers ,philanderers and thieves in the neighborhood.

Yes, there are a few good guys, even a rotten corpse produces worms.
I kid you not, if you let these yeshivas do what they have been doing, there will not be a viable Jewish community in fifty years or less.
There may be people who will dress in black, but Judaism and it's beauty can not perpetuate itself, when the so called leaders are charlatans and hucksters.


Take heed, nobody thought Sharon, the mighty warrior, would do what he is doing.
Nobody thought that the Arabs would get back Jewish land as they keep killing us.

GET RID OF THE LIKES OF MARGULIES, KOTLER, KAMINETZKY and all the other minuvalim that have mocked you.





Anonymous Farshtoonkena Yid said...

The Boro Park Waiter

A Song and Chorus by
Farshtoonkena Yid

Boro Park Waiter:
Ah, Shalom Aleichem Here's my mesorah:
I shteiged many years in the holy gemorah
Then I found a rich girl; no need to be poorer!
I married her fast and became a big shnorrer.

YOu ask what I do, I say I'm a waiter
I'm waiting for schver to drop dead like a fly
Then his money is mine, in the blink of an eye

He waits for his schver to drop dead like a fly
Then the money is his, in the blink of an eye!

Boro Park Waiter:
I've got a house like a fortress
filled with silver and gold
A Lexus, a Caddy and stocks to be sold
A mind full of chochmas the better to scheme
To get all the schver's money: that is my dream!

He waits for his schver to drop dead like a fly
Then the money is his, in the blink of an eye!

Boro Park Waiter:
I'm fat as a pig from kiggul and cake
That I eat while I learn, that I learned how to fake
A finer frim Yid, o yes that is me
I sit on my butt and enjoy luxury!

He waits for his shver to drop dead like a fly
Then the money is his, in the blink of an eye!

Boro Park Waiter:
You think I am frum with my hat and my payos
YOu see me at dinners; I'm up on the dais
A chashuva Yid, O yes that is me
Counting my gelt and sneaking TV.

He waits for his schver to drop dead like a fly
Then the money is his in the blink of an eye

Saturday, August 13, 2005 11:57:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


Greattt stuff!

Das ez vat a board member shood look like.

Really Funny!

Sunday, August 14, 2005 12:33:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Sunday, August 14, 2005 1:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Farshtoonkena Yid said...


You ask what I do; I say I'm a waiter
That my schver should drop dead rather sooner than later;
I wait for my shver do drop dead like a fly,
Then his money is mine, in the blink of an eye!

Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:31:00 AM  
Blogger kimberly said...

Your best post to date (or at least that I have read so far).

Sunday, August 14, 2005 12:24:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...


Great lyrics. Do you have a recommended tune to sing along with it?

Sunday, August 14, 2005 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


Thankyou!Sad but true.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 1:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Funny Funny!

However, honestly I think you are biased by a BP sterotype.

A good laugh anyway.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 3:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Hieseyidene said...

You keep on talking about the BP Jews, the chasidim, the yeshivishe, all not being true frum torah jews.

Pray tell us, aside from the fact that you perhaps don't cheat or take programs from the gov, with what are you more frum?

YOU posted this post on T"B before Chazos, did you not?????
How ok is THAT with halacha?
Or perhaps that is the way you mourn the chorbon b'h.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 4:09:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...


You're a true artist. That is Broadway quality, especially the 3rd person chorus.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 4:19:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I think Farshtoonk is really Bob Dylan.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 4:43:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


Hitting a raw nerve?
Did you do any melacha at all before chatzos,any?

I am not a pretender, what you see is what you get.
I am far from perfect, but there is not a phony bone in my body.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 4:49:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

The common denominator here (that is such a rebbi word) is poisonous "leadership" that fosters the lies, abhorrent behavior and twisted lifestyles that is allowed to exist in our foolish community. Sure, the "leadership" can't exert control over everyone (and why would they even care to? They're in on the take!) but all the lies are tolerated as long as people are "walking the walk..." and doling out the dirty gelt.

The world of truth is a lonely one, starting telling people how you feel and they look at you like you're an apikorus.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 5:05:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


I am confused. If these poeple are truly and genuinely uninterested in Yiddishkeit, how come they don't at least go modern-or non-chassiic?

I have met chassidim in Boro Park. While I certainly don't want that lifestyle for myself, nor do I approve of the way they deprive their youth of the skills to survive and pay for their family's needs, most I have met seem genuinely focused on Judaism. They help each other out in ways I wish other Jews would. It floored me.

I am not denying the problems of this community - it is dysfuntional, and encourages poverty, schonrring, and their exists, among a significant and all-too-visible minority, a horrific lack of resepect for the law or business ethics, particularly fiscal ones - and that is a terrible problem.

I do not seek to minimize the problems.

But their rank and file did not seem disingenous about their religion to the extent you have suggested, from what little I have seen.

Thi by no means justifies any anti-social behavior. I'm just saying.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 5:30:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


The blogosphere is a good place for
the truth to unfold.

Alot of people are getting their info on the net.

I get a kick how many people are talking about this blog not knowing that I am the author.

They're calling me a momzer etc..., bt noone is calling me a liar.

Good Start!

Sunday, August 14, 2005 5:34:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


I am not suggesting that every bit of what Jews in Boro Park do,has no redeeming value whatsoever.

Bikur Cholim, Hatzoloh, and Tomchei Shabbos are great examples of what we can accomplish if we choose people to run it that have integrity.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 5:41:00 PM  
Anonymous sechel said...

please explain yourself aboutthe R.Kamenetsky family.It is not the general impression.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:24:00 PM  
Anonymous heshys house said...

I would not agree that most bp flatbush jews are not enjoying davening.I love davening.Im sure there are jews in Lawrance and other such modern areas that dont know the meaning ofthe words that they daven so they hate it.But if one bothers to get an artscroll siddur you can learn the meaning of every word.ONCE YOU KNOW THE MEANING OF THE WORDS YOU SAY DURING DAVENING ITS BEAUTIFUL. The same with Shabbos if you realize the poer of Shabbos your life would change dramaticly.I invite guests from all over the planet and some are from total non orthodox backgrounds.They come for one shabbos and they are blasted into the beauty of Judaism.After reading your posting on Tishbav afternoon I started thinking how many of my guests were inspired because of Shabbos.This year alone there were several who never fasted in there life and were fasting for the first time some in their 50s and from reform backgrounds. In fact one of those fasting is a ny times reporter who began getting closer to yiddishkeit just by coming every other wek for shabbos.There is so much one can do to inspire themselves to become passionate about their Judaism.My way is from my shabbos guests who are from very far backgrounds.I have stories that could bring the greatest sages to tears when they would hear the stories of the unsong heroic baalei tsuvahs.I ventutre to say I had a number of guest whos emunah was so strong that they parralleled the greatest tzaddikim of this and last generation.When I think about the great scrafices that some of the baal tsuvah shabbos guest have made I get inspired in my davening and learning. I just want to share one story of a woman who was religious only 2 years and her daughter of 30 years old passed away and friday was the burial.That friday night she was at my house for Shabbos and you could not even tell that only a few hours earlier she had buried her only daughter,her only kid.She was on a level of the great tzaddikim who were able to put personal loss secondary to Shabbos.It was such an intense Shabbos that the frum from birth heimisha types were in awe of this woman.We need the outside Jews coming into the fire of Torah to inspire us frum from birth heimisha crowd.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:30:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

The Philadelphia Yeshiva student body was and is carefully selected for rich kids.
They were forced to take Russians and Iranians.
They and their families live high off the hog with a mortgage free yeshiva, while they have their idiot kids running the place.

Shmuel wins the award for the biggest faker in Philadelphia.

They are the movers and shakers in the "kollel for all" fraud.

All his brothers are frauds and ignoramuses.
This is nothing new!

Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:40:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...


Newsflash: Most of BP and Flatbush don't understand the meaning of davening either - I'm willing to bet on it. It's not only the "modern" ones. What does modern mean anyway? You're strange.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 7:31:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

You are way off on a tangent here.
Of course people from the "outside" find Shabbos interesting.
Do you know the percentages that remain frum?
Maybe 1% I am told from the experts.
That is 1% of people that the kiruv movement spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on.

I have people who come over for Shabbos all the time.
They love the food, songs and stories, but never make it to the next level.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 7:44:00 PM  
Anonymous joe said...

can any comment why rabbi yaakov kaminetsky's kids turned out to be a bunch of losers?such a holy man to produce such offspring,doesnt add up

Sunday, August 14, 2005 7:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Chezki said...

R' Kaminetsky was a big big hater

Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a so-called "Ba'al Tshuva", I can sympathize with some of your sentiments. I struggled for many years to get by. I had kids in yeshiva, no money and a stay at home wife. For years, I was deep in debt, felt about two inches tall, and suffered great anxiety for not having enough money to pay all the tuitions and support my family, though I made a decent middle class income. Anyway, I came to resent it when rabbonim, who were obviously living well, and whose children were living very well, came to me for money. It really turned me off.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:27:00 PM  
Anonymous joe said...

who did he hate?

Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:27:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

The baal tsuvah movement is a disaster, because the underlying tensions are not accomodated, but attacked.

I was a young man in yeshiva, and after I told him I was going to college back in the states, he told me he was praying that I changed my mind.

This is but one point of bitterness in my BT past, but it illustrates how insane it gets and how fundamentalist the "hashkafah".

I come from a middle class family where my father has a post-doc -- it made no sense for a Rosh Yeshiva, a child of wealthier parents, to deter me from a college education.

I was a kid looking for a functional, authentic religious lifetyle, and I was instead fed some really bad acid.

Eventually, I puked and I puked and most of it came up.

In case you can't tell, it left a rather bad taste in my mouth.

I'm hardly the only one. There are a lot more like me. We have no community, we are not an organized force.

We walk alone, and try to make sense of the darkness and madness as best we can.

I still believe there is something to this whole thing, but I don't know what it is, and don't trust that the "mesorah" is clear or unadultered.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 9:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Chezki said...

he was streamline yeshivish.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 9:55:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

To the previous anonymous poster who said he was a baal tshuva,

Perhaps, if you remained frum, you can share your story with our esteemed board member, David Kelsey.

I have heard your story way too many times for my comfort.

Why does the BT movement get people that are not qualified for the difficult kiruv job?

You would think that the millions of dollars spent on kiruv would enable them to get teachers who can assist people who are looking for "realistic" answers.

Which leads me to question what they taught you may NOT be legitimate Mesorah, or Mesorah not portrayed in an appropriate manner for people that are new at this.

What's your take on this?

Sunday, August 14, 2005 10:31:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

The Baal T'Shuva movement is a disaster.

The unsuspecting subjects are intellectually lied to over and over again and are left half-baked. The Kiruv people are trying to fill a void and find meaning in their own empty existence. The real yeshiva guys (what is a real Yeshiva guy?) don't get involve in Kiruv - it's the "cool" and "with-it" guys that run around with stupid groups like Project Seed and Aishe HaTorah. Uch.

Some of them do a good job though and are well-intentioned.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 10:31:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


In response to your previous post questioning why the guys in BP don't change,theyr'e stuck.
They would lose their families and standing in the community if they became MO or similar.
Imagine being forced to do stuff on a daily basis that you have come to hate.
In a way I feel bad for them for being stuck, but never excuse their immoral behavior.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 10:38:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

What lies are fed to the BT's?

Sunday, August 14, 2005 10:41:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

It is all the fault of the phony rebbe's and rosh yeshiva that keep on exploiting these boro parkers for money. The phony rabanus approve of the scams because they keep on getting the donations. FEH to the Lipa Morgoilis of the world!! FEH to those F****** dinners!!! FEH to the honoring of rich am haratzim!! FEH to calling those stinken awards "harbazon torah" or "kesser shem tov"

Sunday, August 14, 2005 10:43:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


On some level, I think it is a viscious circle. The more fahfrumt the demands are, the crazier the BT's are that remain in those circles, and the crazier BT's are considered generally, and the less likely it is to retain regular people.

The more moderate BT places are in Israel, and they are zionist to the point of absurdity.

I wanted to learn about Judaism and the Talmud, not why the State of Israel is the heralding of the messianic era.

I think that the BT world can't shift until the Black Hat world shifts.

My own sense is that the best and perhaps only kiruv speicalists who will do a good job are seasoned, moderate ba'al tsuvas - but that means giving them power, and respecting it.

I don't think that will happen.

What is critical is that you can't be a spiritual guide to someone you hold in contempt. This is a critical issue, and one never addressed. If you look down on secular Jews, stay out of the kiruv business. There are other ways to gather great stories for one's friends.

The focus can't be on changing a person. It has to be on educating him.

To me, that is an implict meaning of "Talmud Torah c'neged Kulum."

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:00:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

I think that you should change the color of your site to Orange. At least for this week. This is a terrible time for the Jewish people and I am sure that most of the visitors to this site dont have a clue as to what's going on in Israel. It is not their fault, it is the fault of the "drek" school system. Most of the people that I met today were discussing the "meziza" issue as if it is the most important thing in the world.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:02:00 PM  
Anonymous BT said...

I am the so-called Ba'al Tshuva who posted earlier. I can share some of my early experiences. In 1975, I graduated from a top university with high honors and, because I felt ethnically, though not religiously Jewish, I travelled to Israel for what I thought would be a six-month travel and fun time before going on to professional school. I ended up in a "Baal Tshuva" yeshiva in Jerusalem. I found that I really did feel a connection to the learning. I read Shimshon Rafael Hirsch at great length and was really moved. I had no prior Jewish education. The Rosh HaYeshiva did everything he could to get me to give up all plans for higher education and to remain at his yeshiva. I was told that Jews are required to learn full time, and that given the times we live in, we should not have professions. I bought into this for a while. My parents, of course, were horrified. My father is an accomplished professional as was his father. I put off coming back to the states. My parents came to visit me and the Rosh Yeshiva put enormous pressure on me to get money from them. then he got them in a room and hit them up for a few thousand dollars. It was acutely embarrasing. When my grandfather died, and I told him that I had to go back to the States for the funeral, after 15 months in his yeshiva, his eyes lit up and the first thing out of his mouth was that maybe I could get a donation to the yeshiva in my grandfather's name. I was 22 years old at the time and utterly disgusted by his attitude. I had learned that I was supposed to give this man ultimate respect, but I don't think I had ever encountered such crudity before from a person in an exalted position. I left and never returned to that place, though I did end up learning in a regular yeshiva in the states, and then went onto professional school. Looking back on it, I realize that the first yeshiva I attended was not much more than a family business for the Rosh Yeshiva. The learning was pathetic. It was all about money. There was a women's section as well. The girls were required to go to the rebbetzin's house on Friday afternoons and clean it. All types of abuse were explained away with spiritual rationalizations which made sense to us only because we knew no better. The name of the Yeshiva is the Diaspora Yeshiva. It still exists and has a web site. I rarely tell anyone I went there. I would have left but we were told, and I believed it for a while, that this particular Rosh Yeshiva had THE mesorah from Har Sinai, and no one else did, and those who stayed at his yeshiva were destined to be gedolim, not that I had any real idea of what a gadol is supposed to be. We were also told that we were the special community of Jews that was destined to return to Har Tzion, as prophecied by Obadia. And lots of other manipulative nonsense that I prefer not to think about. Over the years I have seen and heard a lot of horror stories. I think it is a wonder that I remained "frum" and sometimes I question my judgment.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:15:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Am Echad,
There has to be a way to deal with these gangsters!
Is there noone in Tora T'mima that is capable of shaking up the momzer?

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:16:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

I have never heard of a "good" ba'al tsuva yeshiva. I fear it is an oxymoron.


Wouldn't it be better if the BT studies were part-time, while they continued their lives?

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:21:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...


I is unfortunate but the entire that entire "yeshivas tora temima" is "mezuyaf metocho" It is one huge forgery. It is like an "ir hanidachas". Nothing can be done. This is why American Judaism is going down the drain. Most of the mosdos are built on stolen money and sheker.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:22:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...


I am horrified to hear what happened to you. I feel so bad for you. It is amazing that you are still religious. I was pretty sure that BT yeshivos treat their students with higher dignity than the others. After all, you guys come knowing much more about the world then typical naive yeshiva bochurim. I thought that only we FFB get raped in the system.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:24:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


It's in many ways worse for BT's - we have no resistence to this drivel.

It is the forsaken religion of our ancestors - and we are eager to reclaim it.

Later, we learn why they walked away in the first place.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:26:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

David Kelsey and BT,

I would love to hear more stories about your experiences. I can not believe what I am reading. I would also like to hear any stories you had with Chabad. I would like to analyze the treatment of BT's.

Thank You

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:30:00 PM  
Blogger JERKJ said...

Howdy. A "Cradle Catholic" here. I enjoyed the read, although a lot of it was over my head, and it was sort of depressing. Your description of the tribe in question is fairly synonymous with that of any group of average joes in any metropolis... But I must say, you New Yorkers sure are nutty!

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:33:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

The BT Poster,
We all are BT, or need to be.

Tough experience,
I would definitely have not become frum.
How did you make that decision?

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:36:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...


BT paints a pretty gruesome picture of the lies I refer to. On a less criminal level however, BTs are lied to in many other ways too. Reasons why we keep mitzvos, for example, are often completely fabricated (Taharas Hamishpacha is a common one I'm sure you know half the lies) and everything is spiritualized and sugar coated. They're never warned that it'll be a bitch finding a shidduch and they will most probably be looked on as third class citizens by the Yeshiva world for the rest of their lives (and their childrens' lives)

On the bright side, at least importance is placed on wearing a hat and pronouncing Shema a thousand times until it is done "correctly" No wonder the movement spawns a lot of misery.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:39:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

David I think I sort of attacked you once. I apologize. After "knowing" you a bit more, I decided I like you. You (and BT) have clearly been through a lot and I am sympathetic.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:44:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I was also under the impression that the BT movement knew what they were doing.
Do these same stories happen in American institutions?

One would think the BT movement had sincerely frum people.
Go figure.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:45:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

Am Echad,

I hear Chabad chews up BTs and spits 'em out.


Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:45:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

who heads the yeshiva at Har Zion?>

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:47:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Big of you to apologize to David.
Kol Hakovod.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:48:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...


The yeshiva world spits on everyone. It is not only us and the BT's. They hate everyone that thinks out of the box.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:48:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

I wish that Aron Shechter (cum lips) from Chaim Berlin could see this blog........

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:51:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I know loads of people,I'll take a sincere BT for my daughter anytime.
I use "BT" only to distinguish these guys from kids brought up in religious homes, not to categorize our brothers.
I said many times, these guys deserve all the credit in the world, I don't believe I could make that change.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

proform crosswalk caliber treadmill for you.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:56:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

Most BT are good people. Some are way out of line. NIssen Wolpin is way out of line!!!! Contrary to popular belief, he doesnt know why G-d does certain things!!

Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:59:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

Many BTs I meet seem depressed and I'm not sure why. Are they dissapointed? Miss the old way? Do the feel rejected? Do they feel like they've been had?

I'd be interested to know.

(BTW Enjoy hell Peter Jennings you Arab-loving anti-semite)

Monday, August 15, 2005 12:10:00 AM  
Blogger AmEchad said...


B"H that Jennings is dead for the Jewish Expulsion from Gaza

Monday, August 15, 2005 12:13:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

How often do you find a happy FFB?
A real happy guy, not some putz who smiles for a living.

Jennings is in hell, you can take that to the bank.

Monday, August 15, 2005 12:14:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


it wasn't necessary - but thanks!

I had a question for you - about the Taharas mishpacha - what are you referring to? Never go to that stuff.

Also- is that 14 days thing really followed? Don't some women just go to the mikvah when they stop bleeding?

A friend of mine did a story how sometimes women who have shorter mentrual cycles can't have kids cause they ovulate on the 12th day, not the 15th, and no one figured that one out.

Monday, August 15, 2005 12:15:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

I meant I never "got" to that stuff.

Sorry about that.

Monday, August 15, 2005 12:15:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Am Echad,
That SOB Jennings would have paid to report that story.
He's with Arafat Now!
Good riddance.

Monday, August 15, 2005 12:17:00 AM  
Blogger AmEchad said...


Sephardim and Ashkenzim have different minhagim

Monday, August 15, 2005 12:17:00 AM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

I hope that Hersh, all the Netuerei Karta animals meet Arafat and Jennings very soon.

Monday, August 15, 2005 12:19:00 AM  
Anonymous BT said...

I stayed frum basically because I felt very deeply and sincerely that Judaism provides the spirituality that was utterly missing from the non-Orthdox Jewish communities. I could never go back to being a Reform Jew. What emptiness! I do believe that Jews have a deeply spiritual side and Torah Judaism is the "thirst-quencher". I daven and learn daily. I have more or less found my place, and am something of a community leader. People don't know I am a BT unless I tell them, and they are usually very surprised. My wife is an FFB from Boro Park; our kids are frum, though you may think of us as "modern" if you met us. I did meet some wonderful people along the way, so I don't want to give a totally one-sided negative impression. One great influence on me was Rabbi Nachman Bulman. Life takes unusual turns for many of us, and I don't think it is unusual for a person to seek spirituality in a non-spiritual world. But it does take a long time to find the correct leaders and one's place. I had to wade through a lot of crap for a long time. It's a long learning process. I probably stayed "frum" because I am cynical enough to discriminate between what makes sense and what does not, what people deserve respect and who does not, regardless of what other people say. Those BT's who went way off the deep end...grew payos and put on black clothes when they could hardly read Kriyas Sh'ma...generally were the first ones to drop out.

Monday, August 15, 2005 12:20:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


I think if it was made clear that we will all need to find our own path, and more importantly, place, it would be a more realistic option and ultimately a more succesful experience.

I'm no hippy, but there is no other way. We come from very different places than Jews from religious backgrounds, and therefore many of us need to end up in a different place.

Anything else will indeed, be "misery", and usually unsuccessful.

Monday, August 15, 2005 12:28:00 AM  
Anonymous gross said...


I'm not an expert with the technicalities of the Halachos, but 12 days in total is the absolute minimum for all Orthodox Jews. Some Sephardic authorities permit waiting 11 days and certain Rabbis, both Ashkenazi and Sephardic may permit waiting only 11 days under certain circumstances such as when a couple is having difficulty conceiving. Conservative Jews hold it's a chumra and they visit the mikvah immediately without waiting an extra seven days. (Please don't hold me as an halachic authority - I am FAR from it.

I was mainly referring to the do's and dont's, some baloney Harchakos (some) and the overall answering of questions with BS spiritual meaning. You're not allowed to do XYZ because you're just not allowed. Ours is a faith-based way of life and painting pretty flowery reasons just dissapoints people...

Monday, August 15, 2005 12:48:00 AM  
Blogger Baltimoron said...

Reb Un-Orthodox,

The lies fed to the BTs are precisely the sort of problems you bring out in your blog. It's not so much that the things expressed by "kiruv professionals" (what a disgrace) in shiurim or books are actual lies. It's the obvious dissonance between the truth and beauty of yiddishkeit and the awful perversion and hypocrisy of our everyday communities. Remember that BTs have no real idea what they face until they are completely committed. No one tells them that their models the "orthodox" lie, cheat, steal. That's bad enough, but of course most don't do such things. The real horror is the distorted priorities. They're unaware at first that it's impossible to daven properly in most shuls because of the miserable behavior. Or that the schools (principals, parents and board members alike) exist to serve themselves and the education is just a by-product (in other words, the students come last). Or that people are so anti-intellectual and unworldly that they pretend to be more interested in a silly "vort" dumbed-down and repeated ad nauseum than in the greatest products of the non-frum world. These are just a few illustrations: shuls that are like Grand Central Station, schools that hire and then cover up for molesters (I have specific knowledge), unbearably childish music copied directly from the vilest sources and given a hechsher by a big black yarmulke and a few "oy oy oy"s. How about when your friend the Chabad shaliach who seems to be dedicated and authentic all of a sudden won't explain his beliefs and insists they're no one's business? How about when another friend insists with a straight face that what truly protects the Jews in Israel is the yeshiva bocherim and justifies their disgusting parasitic behavior? The list is endless.
I remember once looking around in a filthy restaurant at the low standard of behavior and thinking "at least these people will never murder anybody" or "at least these people are saying a bracha before they eat". Is that enough?
A BT who sticks with his decision has the same hardships as any Yid. He may have more satisfaction in his re-connection to truth and the beautiful aspects of the community (there certainly are many). On the other hand, the disappointment can be almost unbearable.

Monday, August 15, 2005 12:49:00 AM  
Anonymous heshys house said...

MOST OF YOU ARE OUT OF WHACK. I would say about 75 percent of the reform or non orthodox guests that come to my house for shabbos become orthodox.It may take up to even 3 or 4 years but they do it.This tisha bav I had 3 guests who never fasted on tisha bav in their lives and they did so for the first time.One who happened to have her birthday on tishbav and told her family she cant show up for the birthday party because its a national jewish mourning and fast day. They just recently koshered their kitchens and listening to from how far they came from totally moved me.On the issue of ffb characters who are dishonost I warn my guests every week that there are certaIN DRESSED UP LOOKING ORTHODOX JEWS BUT THEY ARE not real. I tell them there are atheist too who dress chassidic and on several occassions had such individuals over so that my guests knows not to trust just anyone looking orthodox.I would say that most non observant guests begin to grow very fast after spending shabbos at my house.The tough ones the 1 percent success is the FFB types who have gone off the derech.I had a number of rabbis kids at my home and they are the toughest.I guess its a character issue.Give me any sincere reform jew and I have him ultra orthodox very fast.Just about 5 weeks ago I had a jews for yoska at my house for shabbos.He came back 3 times and he is now in Israel in a baal tsuva yeshiva.Shabbos is a taste of the afterlife.But you have to know how to keep it.

Monday, August 15, 2005 1:34:00 AM  
Anonymous gross said...

"Give me any sincere reform jew and I have him ultra orthodox very fast." What are you saying? Why would you want to make anyone ultra orthodox?

Wow you're so great and convinving. Come back to me with your charges in five years and let's see how they're faring.

Laila Tov, Hershele.

Monday, August 15, 2005 1:43:00 AM  
Anonymous Eli said...

Unorthodox:Nice to see how you you passed Tisho b'ov.You immediately posted a diatribe on frum jews on Motzei shabbes, leil tisho b'ov.It could not have waited, right?
I'm not getting into the technicalities of before or after 'chatsos', that is a joke, since I'm quite sure that, had you not fasted you would be on a higher madreiga than posting this awful rubbish, with Names!Somes 'ahavas chinam' would not hurt.

Monday, August 15, 2005 3:16:00 AM  
Anonymous BT said...

I agree with much of what Baltimoron writes. BT's are very susceptible to being hurt by the frum world, almost in the way children are susceptible to being hurt by adults. Part of the reason for this is that the BT process can be so intense; the old personality breaks down, disintegrates in part like a seed in the ground, while the new person emerges in a raw and sensitive state. BT's are, in a word, innocent, or perhaps we can say, ignorant for quite a while as they develop their Jewish lifestyle. Not everyone experiences this intensity It's different for different people. So much depends on the initial leader, or rabbi. I could go on and on about this, but one of the toughest things for me, as a person who did go through the intense period, was the gradual realization in my mid-20's, that I was sacrificing so much to be frum while FFB's were running around with secret girlfriends with whom they were having sexual relations, and that there were liars and thieves in the Orthodox community. It was a devestating realization and one from which I have never fully recovered. There is also the problem of egomaniacal, manipulative scoundrels posing as rebbeim. That hurt worst of all. I have no rav, having been burnt one time too many. I see some of my fellow BT's following scoundrels posing as rebbeim, and I feel sorry for them. I would love to have a rav, but I don't, and I don't know really where to turn. I respect certain individuals for their halachic knowledge, but I specifically refrain from following anyone. My wife, an FFB, thinks this is very sad. She wants me to have a rav. I tried a few times, but each time observed that my rav, some of whom were well known and respected, had serious character deficiencies or had lunatic concepts of the world that I simply could not accept. I now function independently in the Jewish community and make most of my own decisions, not so much on issues of halacha, but certainly on lifestlyle. I've learned to reject a lot of what I consider nonsense coming from various quarters.

Monday, August 15, 2005 6:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Melamed said...

I just want to say that Farshoonkeney Yid's song is SIMPLY HILARIOUS!!!!

Monday, August 15, 2005 10:08:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I'm off to a meeting for the rest of the day, I will respond to the intellectual comments later.
Great ones from BT, Baltimoron(welcome back),David, Gross....

To you Eli,
Typical idiot that you are.If they were "frum Jews", I would not need or want to blast them.
We "celebrate" Tisha B'Av because of the perverts and murderers of all kind that have KILLED our beautiful Mikdash that we call Yiddishkeit.

It is NOT sinas chinam to hate these guys, it's a mitzvah gedolah.

Monday, August 15, 2005 11:18:00 AM  
Anonymous Sam said...

"Blogs are for people who cant get their thoughts into newspapers"

Quoted from The Wall Street Journal
on August 5 2005

Monday, August 15, 2005 1:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Eli said...

You remind me of the story with the Divrei Chaim :He once blessed someone that he do 'averos' and no 'mitzvos' to the incredulous looks of his followers he explained:The 'oilem' often says :'This person?It's a mitzva to hate him!!!!' or 'this person? It's an avero to help him!!!" You keep away from these mitzvos and make sure you do the big 'aveiro' of helping people!
Unorthodox, you love the 'mitzva' of hating people and saying loshon horah about them, it can't even wait till after Tisho b'ov!

Monday, August 15, 2005 3:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Top Hat said...

I think that the Orthdox community can use the type of critique this blog provides. We are saturated with unrealistic, whitwashed, hagiographical and actually fictional accounts about life in our world, especially among the yeshivaleit. We need some real criticism to keep us thining and straight. The Chofetz Chaim, it is well known, went to great lengths to elucidate the mitzvah of rebuke. The neve'eim of old also rebuked the people. We need some honest rebuke to counterbalance the continuous propaganda and fund-raising that dominates Orthodox cultural life.

Monday, August 15, 2005 4:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Monday, August 15, 2005 4:04:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Paris Hilton no, Robin Williams yes
Paris Hilton gained more exposure recently when a poll was taken which revealed she's getting too much exposure.
Hi there I have just visited your blog and really like it. I will book mark it for future reference. I have just found this useful little directory of Life Insurance Companies in the UK let me know what you think of it.

Monday, August 15, 2005 4:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Come and check it out if you get time.

Monday, August 15, 2005 4:59:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Stop the drugs you are taking, they are creating delusions of nonsense.
Give your recipe to the BT community!
You are definitely a quart of oil short!

Monday, August 15, 2005 7:39:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

You remind me of the story of the three little piggys.

Monday, August 15, 2005 7:40:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Top Hat,
Thanks for the kudos.
It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

Monday, August 15, 2005 7:42:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Pskening nidah?
How many bags a week?

Monday, August 15, 2005 7:44:00 PM  
Anonymous Really "gross" said...

LOL. It's a little slow lately but come September and I'm back in business - sniff, sniff.

Monday, August 15, 2005 7:55:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


All of you have made extremely eye-opening observations.

I was not familiar with the facts as you state them in the BT leadership.
I guess you can call me naive.(that hurts)
I believed that the BT movement had sincere leaders since they struggled to get where they are in their nook of the frum world.

Tell me this, are the BT yeshivas and leaders for the most part BT themselves?

The few BT leaders I met come across really sincere and caring.

From your experience how many make the frum scene and stay frum, by percentages?

I have friends who tell me that 1% is a real number at traditional BT yeshivas, and somewhat higher at Chabad.

I grew up FFB,whatever that really means, and can not tolerate what has taken place to the community.

I, similar to you BT,have given up with the shul rabbis.
I make my own decisions on just about everything.

Call for a shaila, and a return envelope from the shul is in the mail before you hang up the phone.

I go about my business doing the best I can,without calling anyone anymore.
I learn as much as I can during a busy work day, learn on line as well, and am involved in learning with other people.

I read as much as I can usually as much as five books a week on all kinds of topics.
Religion, science and philosophy are my favorites.

The internet has become a tool where guys like us can get together in a healthy dialogue.

I use "colorful" language to attract attention to my ideas, I do not use them in my private life.

People in so called leadership positions are reading this blog, so I will carry on with the hope that I make a difference.

Atleast I will know, I tried.

Monday, August 15, 2005 8:03:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


I don't know how they got the figure of 1% -that sounds rediculous - but the reasons given as to how it's perceived as such a low number may itself explain where the disconnect is coming from.

In medicine, there is a rule "do not harm."

In kiruv, it should be "don't drive people nuts."

It is rarely even a consideration.

Monday, August 15, 2005 8:24:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

One reliable guy I know who contributes financially to Aish tells me that there really is no telling for sure what that number is.

He says Aish Hatorah bases it on the attendees at their Discovery program that continue to come around for a while until they take a hike.
Based on that, is one out of a hundred really that far-fetched?

Monday, August 15, 2005 8:36:00 PM  
Anonymous BT said...

Well, I just re-read what I wrote earlier and I want to add something. I want to add that I did meet some wonderful, generous people along the way. I fell in love with old Yerushalami Jews. They seemed so pure to me back then, in the 1970's. It wasn't all negative. Not by any means. It was an extremely difficult trip for me, owing to personal circumstances in addition to the transformation into a "frummie." I enjoy learning for the most part, and used to find it positively scintillating, for lack of a better word. Learning the mussar of R. Chaim Shmuelevitz, for example, R. Shimshon Rafael Hirsch, the minchas chinuch and other seforim were very meaningful as I learned them. I wish the frum world would pay more attention to R. Hirsch, but I am afraid he is too intellectual, poetic and refined for the majority of yeshiva folk. As far as the percentage of people who become or remain "frum" from the BT crowd, I have no idea. I do know that a lot of people drop out and a lot stick around, some to become very sincere Jews. But you can generally detect the BT in them. Not so with me, because I spent quite a while in a mainstream yeshiva and married a FFB girl. For many years, my mind was mush and I had enough culture shock to light up New York City for a week, but I made it through.
I have concluded that the disillusionment that set in over time is part of the test. Hashem sent Avraham Aveinu to Eretz Yisrael. When Avraham got there, he discovered a famine and had to go to Egypt. But he remained Avraham Aveinu.

Monday, August 15, 2005 10:39:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Those are not ba'al tsuvahs. That is merely a trip, often 3 days, sometimes two weeks, depending.

Discovery is awful because they include THE CODES.
This scam is to help prove the validity of the Torah through finding prophesy of prediction of events and even historical figures "hidden in the letters and verses.

The obvious problem is that they find them in a very large scroll and in a language where you can add vowels at whim retroactive to the events, as well as go backwards, skip by by any number, etc. It is gematria gone wild, with no rhyme or reason, only logo-rythyms.

It is, essentially, the opposite of prophecy.

What percentage of people would believe me to be a prophet if I stood at ground zero today and predicted that 9/11 would would happen on Sept. 11, 2001? And "proved" it, because Iwithin my rwritings, I had all the digits of that date, albeit not plainly and in that order?

Probably no more than 1%, if that.

It's a little different, yes, but my anaolgy is closer to what they are doing than prophecy.

This is not all they do, I admit it is the most retarded aspect of what they do, but you get the point.

Most of us who fell into this movement did not do so because of this sort of thing, but because we had questions and sought answers.

That is not indicative of the involved ba'al tsuva movement, but of kiruv attempts to interest people in Judaism.

Those are two different things.

Monday, August 15, 2005 10:54:00 PM  
Blogger Baltimoron said...

Reb Un-orthodox,

A certain group of the BT leaders are already covered by your own statement: "Whenever Torah becomes a business,no matter how well intentioned it starts out,money poisons the well.
(You can see that I learn over your statements with kavana)
Another group may not be making money but receives status in the community for their well-publicized efforts. A third category is the nauseatingly familiar Jew (meaning most of us) who is way too interested in his neighbor's frumkeit and usually not interested enough in his own.
None of this is completely l'shem shamayim, which means that all of these efforts have the possibility to go very wrong.

To be more subversive, the "kiruv" mindset is more than a little arrogant. I once asked a Lubavitcher whether the Rebbe ever used the term. He said no, paused, and said he thought the Rebbe would have said no Jew is ever far away. I have known many, many Jews especially of the older generations who reached a wonderful level of bein adam l'chaveiro while they were mechallel shabbos. Without defending chillul shabbos, compare them to us and our neighbors; we are very precise about wigs and hats at the same time that we ignore other issues. Read over al chet and then tell me who has more to answer for. Most frum Jews do not see the non-frum as they really exist, just as they misrepresent themselves. Here again (another theme of your blog) they are fantasizing rather than face the less flattering reality.

Here is a quote from "HaRav" (that's what they called him -- rabbi's not good enough) Shlomo Aschkenasy published in Hamodia last year: "...the witless, unknowing, spiritually deprived Jews who had no real ties to Torah went astray and left our folds." The previous paragraph makes it clear that he's talking about all American Jews past and present not identified as orthodox. If you think about "no real ties to Torah" it's bad enough, but "witless"!

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:15:00 AM  
Anonymous aaron said...

I want to complement you on having the best frum blog.Your fellow posters are very thoughtful and intelligent as well.
You write with great intelligence and a real solid, smart sense of humor.

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 2:21:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


It is interesting that one of the few bright spots is not that far away from you - Camp Shoresh in Frederick county.

This model should be looked at more carefully by the Orthodox community - in that it is more out to educate rather than transform.

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:28:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

I've noticed your remark about not having a phony bone in your body. So why don't you go public with your ramblings?
I,m sure you would draw a crowd.(and maybe a couple of raw eggs too)

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd like to see your take on

2)Hatzala (why has it become an elite orgaization where you have to be "well connected" to join and save lives.)

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:35:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Thanks for the info.
I investigated the "Bible Codes" and the whackos that purport this to be true,and come up with a pathetic group of people who are desperately seeking attention.
How in the world can Aish sell this malarky?
No thinking person can possibly buy this jibberish.

Interestingly enough, Y. Adlerstein from Y.U. in L.A., was on the History Channel selling this nonsense as a "credible code".

It's amazing how far people will go to get their name up in lights.

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:57:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...



Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:58:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


Keep up with quoting the Torah on my blog, and we will put you on the board.

I guess i need to "chazer" more, but I was hoping the kiruv community was different.
They really have a challenge in getting people to come and STAY in that environment.

One would think that the "dedication" would take precedence over the gelt.

I would not take seriously anything Shlomo Ashkenazy says, he has had mental breakdowns more than once, the first one when he was a young man.

In short, the guy is not well and emotionally unstable.

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 5:15:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I am public!

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 5:19:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

Public meaning in the flesh

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 5:20:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

What is Camp Shoresh?

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 5:21:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I am!

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 5:22:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

wher can I find you?

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 5:23:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

You found me!

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 5:27:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

I more comfortable speaking eye to eye

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 5:30:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Take a number!

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 5:35:00 PM  
Blogger Shlomo said...

U are a pathetic immature moron. I'd bet you couldn't learn a blatt Gommorah from an Artscroll. I used to think you were an ehrlicher yid with a chip on his shoulder. Now I know that you are just a rasha. The first thing could do when you got home from shul (I doubt you even went since I'm sure you hate everyone in the area) on Tisha B'Av is to feed your pathetic little ego by posting more of the same baseless crap on your widdle bloggy. You need some serious counseling.
What's the problem you don't get enough kavod? GROW THE HELL UP!!! ABSOLUTELT PATHETIC!

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 6:01:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


I really missed you.
I love you too.

I'm sorry, I need to run to my counseling session and then off to my shock therapy treatment, so I can't talk to you right now.
Nice of you to keep in touch.

A Frailechen Chanukah.

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 6:19:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


YOU EARNED MY RESPECT.(not that you need it)

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 6:34:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


I just got back from therapy, whew! it was a tough session.

The therapist told me that I love kavod too much.
Oh, so hard to hear.

BTW,what part of my blog is "baseless crap"?

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:53:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Camp Shoresh is here: http://www.shoresh.com/

It is an Orthodox summer camp for secular Jewish kids.

Now - obviously my interest is not its curriculum - nor the message that "Torah can be fun."

My interest is that they are not out to enforce change - they are out to educate.

This is its greatness.

This is where it is different.

It is said, when falsehood runs rampant, the truth hides.

Frederick is a great place to hide - not that far away, but far enough.

Camp David is near Frederick.

I think there is something to learn from this camp. It was started by Rabbi Kosman and his son-in-law, and suns, and is run by his son-in-law's brother, Rabbi David Finkelstein, who has a real gift to run a maverick educational program like this one.

I wish I had a similar success story to show you for adults. That would be better.

Maybe there is one.

I just don't know of it.

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:16:00 PM  
Blogger Baltimoron said...


I am familiar with Shoresh and agree with your comments. Dave Finkelstein is a very devoted guy and their approach is admirable.

When Shoresh makes a Shabbaton in Baltimore it's great to see the fascination and excitement of the kids. I guess some of them are the real tinokos shenishbu.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:07:00 AM  
Blogger Baltimoron said...

Reb Un-Orthodox,

I was overwhelmed by your suggestion that I might be considered for membership on the board. I am humbled, I am not worthy, my achievement is nothing, others are far greater, etc. etc.

I'm afraid that I might never make it though. First of all I may be in violation of one of your requirements. I am a professor. Yes they pay me, but there's a safek whether that qualifies as working for a living. Second and infinitely more important, $$$. Where am I ever going to get the bucks to make the contribution I know you must require?

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:32:00 AM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...


If you are looking for support for bringing Balitmoron on the board, you've got mine.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 8:22:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

David & Professor Baltimoron,

Well, atleast we found one kiruv organization that knows what the're doing.
There may be hope for the Jews, after all.

Since the decision of board membership will affect all of Israel, we must take this to a vote.

Let us hear from Gross, Am Echad, and Farshtoonkina.

Professors are borderline working people, however SMART professors are a rare breed and definitely meet the stringent requirements of
our board.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 10:48:00 AM  
Anonymous Good Jew said...

You are all BORED members

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 10:56:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Good Jew,
How "good" can you be by poking fun of the next "Sanhedrin".
Repent before you will face the ultimate punishment,banishment from this blog!

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 11:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Farshtoonkena Yid said...

I vote Yes.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 12:12:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

I support Baltimoron's membership on the Board. What is the question? He is certainly worthy and has sufficient rage.

On another note, upon reviewing Baltimoron's previous comments (in order to assess his worthiness) I came upon something he wrote which is crucial to understanding how all the BS that is going on can be tolerated - the population is "dumbed down!" He is so right and I've always felt this way. The system in place doesn't allow for any sort of thinking outside the box and here lies the problem.

Also, can you give us a sneak preview on the upcoming post?

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Farshtoonkena Yid said...

Of course, the Professor will have to perform the initiation rituals, as we all did. (I am still eating lots of fibre to counter the aftereffects of that ordeal.) He must establish his bona fides. The most critical test, of course, is the well-publicized appearance on the steps of Town Hall during lunch hour, wearing nothing but a shtreimel and Chassidic underwear.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:23:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


1-Do you think the professor is angry enough?
2-Do we want to be open-minded enough to let someone in from outside the Tri-State area?
It's a control thing.
3-Would he be willing to take a stand against something that emanated from Baltimore?
4-What would he do if Aron Feldman put on a shtreimel for example?
5-What would happen if Herman Neuberger would ask Elya Svei to be rosh yeshiva?
6-Would he be willing to spend some time assisting fellow posters with punctuation and spelling?
7-What version of Farshtoonkin's ritual is he willing to perform?

Let us hear from you.

Am Echad, where are you when we need you?

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:02:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


I don't have a topic yet that is stirring enough anger in me.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:08:00 PM  
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Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:27:00 PM  
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Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:27:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

Here's a topic:

What do the people of shomrim REALLY do when they go out on a call

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:32:00 PM  
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Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:33:00 PM  
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3. The Adventures of Men @ Home this Summer while Wives in Bungalow Colonies
4. The Baroque Lifestyle of BP/Fltbs & how they have zero interest/brleif in Moshiach
5. The Touro College Scam

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:47:00 PM  
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Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:55:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...


I think that the "Tuesday night robe" should also be analyzed!

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:05:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...


Does your wife go to a bungalow colony?

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:11:00 PM  
Anonymous yossel the greek said...

when do you play around?

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:14:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

I am sorry. I have been AWOL. I am back. Bring on the rage!!!

We should analyze and piss people off according to the seasons.

Lets start:

We should analyze the "Tuesday night robe" before the horny chasidishe men bring their wives back from the CUNTry.

Second, we should analyze visiting days. How about a section dedicated to all the motherfu***** that run the camps. Why do they get the title of Rabbi? Why do they make waitors and other junior staff pay pay for camp? They may even be worse than roshei yeshiva like Svei and Shechter. How the hell does the head staff induce tears while they recite the kinot for tisha baav? They make beleive they care about the churban beis hamikdosh!! They care about their lives which have become a churban!!

We should then go on to Seminary!!

What does the board think?

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:15:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

Yossel the Greek:

You know that Greeks prefer boys.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no way you guys are settled down ballei batim. you are all a bunch of catholic kids who were just molested by your priest

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:18:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

Is Uman (rosh hashana) mesakin the aveira of cheating on ones wife? Seems to me that more and more low-lifes go each year. I have never been but every year someone else tells me he saw this and this lowlife.....

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:18:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

I actually got sucked off by the talmidim of Svei

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:19:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

I heard that Bunim Berger from Monsey is now called Rabbi Berger!!!! LOL LOL May G-d have mercy on his people.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:21:00 PM  
Anonymous yossel the greek said...

i know sweetie pie.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:24:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

Am Echad:

So only chassidishe men are horny? You have zero interest in "bonding"? well if you say you don't than either your'e a liar or just crazy. Every male on this planet is horny! On the flip side, many people that I know, are doing what your'e accusing the chassidem of monopolizing. Those guys are NOT chassidesh but they sure know where their pipicks are situated!!!

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:25:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...


All males are horny. However not all "ketanim" have created a "Tuesday Night robe"

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:26:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Here are some questions I have:

I would like to know how and why the kashrut industry becamse so strict.

I would like to understand when water becamse traif without a hechsher or filter.

I would lke to know why it is considered normal for a fifteen-20 year old single young man to listen to little boys sing instead of women. It seems like kosher pedophilia. I understand that in prison, but not in civilian Jewish life.

How is this normal?

Also - how come I hear some frum people justifying abuse of social services because of Roosevelt? I am not denying he was an anti-Semite - so what?

How are the American people responsible for their dysfunctional behavior? Please explain the logic to me.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:27:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

I happen to like chasidim. I take them any day over a Litvak or a Yekke. However, they carry a big responsibility when they wear the whole livush!

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:27:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...


It takes a perverted mind to write about boys choirs in that context.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:30:00 PM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

I meet all types of Jews in my line of work. Un-orth. MO. Litvaks.and Chassidem. Every group has people that are yirei shomayim, and unfortunately they also have those who are rotten to the core. I still believe that there are many good qualities that can be learned from Jews of all walks of life.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:35:00 PM  
Anonymous Top Hat said...

I would like to see this blog take on the liars and cheats who swindle their fellow Jews. We all know of people who sit in shul like Shlomo ha Melech, pious look on their faces, their tallis wrapped around them like the clouds of glory, who are nothing more than thieves and crooks. Maybe they are crooks on a large scale, cheating the government, or selling drugs. Or maybe they have betrayed a trust and stolen a friend's business, wife, or idea. I think we should name names. It would be a public service.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well Top Hat its quite obvious that you havn't read any of UO's blogs.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:05:00 PM  
Anonymous pope benedict said...

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Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Un-Orthodox Jew:

I get where you are coming from. My yeshiva in Queens came into being largely because of the existence of bochurim who hailed from Boro Park. We of non-Boro Park origins used to refer to these types as "Boro Park Burn-outs."

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:31:00 PM  
Anonymous yossel the greek said...

Pope Benedict;

were you talkin to me?

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 5:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does anyone know the guy that calls himself "Rabbi Scheinerman". He has a shul and small stupid yeshiva in Flatbush. Recently, I was at a wedding and someone was saying how great he is. Can anyone here please elaborate on him?

Thank You

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:05:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

Rabbi Scheinerman is not worth the earth he walks on. I have yet to see a bigger Baal Gaivah. He has a loser Yeshiva and is a big loser himself.

Good One.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:31:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...

I heard that he thinks that he is the mamshich of R' Shach.

A freind of mine once heard him compare himself to Rav Pam Z"L.
FEH!! Hes a sick guy

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:36:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Am Echad,

Welcome home.

You have a big responsibilty,you can not leave just like that.
Please, take your achrayus seriously.

Kidding aside, I came up with an idea, what do you think?

Each week a member of the board will be a guest blogger.

This week, let us start with Gross.
You get to write the blog to be posted Motzei Shabbos.

E-mail your Torah to me at a_unorthodoxjew@yahoo.com by Friday.
I will cut and paste it and post it Motzei Shabbos with your name on it.
You know the rules:

ALL the board members are qualified for this task.

We will start with Gross, and then take volunteers for the next week.

Let me know!!!

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:41:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Antoher idea,

Why do some Orthodox Jews insist on moving into WASP bastions where they aren't wanted, and remaking the area in their own image? Defying the zoning laws, and generally taking over.

This is not appropriate behavior!

Look at the resentment created in the Hamptons!

WASPS don't want their neighborhoods to be infiltrated by Jews, particularly the Orthodox.

Why do (some) insist on going where we aren't wanted? Do we really need to take over the Hamptons?

Can't we respect that other homogenous cultures want their communities to stay that way - just as many Orthodox Jews want the same thing?

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:42:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...


I am honored. It's almost as if I've been invited to speak at the Agudah Convention.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:47:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

OKAY!Way to go,R'Gross.!!!

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:54:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...


YOu do raise a valid point. However, screw the goyim, they hate us anyway!!!! As long as nothing illegal is done, we should all have the right to live anywhere. One of the greatest things about Chasidim is they are not ashamed of their judaism. This is in contrats to the some "frum" Jewish professionals that think if they take off their yarmulkas it will not be known that they belong to the hebrew tribe. The WASPS can smell jews from far away. Am Yisrael Chai!! Be proud if it!!!

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:55:00 PM  
Blogger AmEchad said...


I love the idea.


I am looking forward

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:56:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Am Echad,
Sounds like you need to vent, SO YOU ARE NEXT!

Start writing!!!

After each member gets posted, we then ask our readers to vote on the best blogger.

LET IT RIP!!!!!!!!

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:02:00 PM  
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Wednesday, August 17, 2005 8:14:00 PM  
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Wednesday, August 17, 2005 8:54:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...


Can you please elaborate on the Kamimnetzkys?


Wednesday, August 17, 2005 8:57:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

There are four brothers.
1-Shmuel -Philadelphia opportunist.
2-Binyamin, the best ass kisser I know,Far Rockaway.The oldest of the four stooges.Am Haaretz like you can't imagine.
3-Noson Kaminetsky, fiction book writer.
He made up most of the stuff in his book, "The Making Of A Godol".
He couldn't get himself ARRESTED in a yeshiva in America, so became a rosh yeshiva in Israel.
He taught Chumash for Torah Umesorah for a short while, until they kicked him out of there.
Super Bozo, of course he thinks he's a genius.
I heard a shiur from him once for curiosity, half of the mareh m'komos did not exist.I couldn't stop laughing.
He gives "asshole" a whole new meaning.
4-Avrohom,a flunky box salesman who was starving to death in the U.S., so vat happens, he moves to Israel to become a BIG rosh yeshiva.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 9:21:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

Avrohom must be the one who used to live on E. 9th St. I didn't know he moved to Israel. I remember him from the neighborhood, I met him once as a teenager - it was Motzei Shabbos and we were on our way out. We seemed like a wild bunch,so he tried to "schmooze" my friends and I, thinking we were were a coupla "youth-at-riskers."

I guess that was his foray into the world of chinuch (unless he had prior experience, but I don't think so because I remember him boring us w/ stories of corrugated cardboard) He must have gotten a kick outta me when I was thru w. him because he knows my "choshuv" father.


I heard that Shmuel is not a bad guy and that there is a "right" conspiracy to deligitamize him because of his maverick ways. And Noson? I am a bit surprised at your opinion although I don't know much about him. His book was way too scholarly and in poor writing style. Everything is buried in footnotes so I couldn't get past the first page.

I always thought Noson was a victim.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 10:06:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...

Tatte must be doing cartwheels in his grave...

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 10:12:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

One really wonders how this would happen to R'Yaakov?
I wish I was wrong about these guys,it stifles my emunah when a true, real honest to goodness gadol, produces mediocre and worse kids.
If not from him come the next generation of gedolim, than from whom?

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 11:30:00 PM  
Anonymous Reb Osher Arielli Shlita said...

News Bulletin: FLASH!!!! FLASH!!! Benny Berger, aka Bunim Berger, who now heads his own yeshiva is Bridgeport is going to reveal himself as the "Melech Hamoshich" Harav Bunim has announced that IY"H he is going to try to do this by 1:30 PM this coming Friday. Please greet him with white horses.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 11:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know, even Moshe Rabbeinu's grandkids got involved with Pessel Michah.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:12:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you for unloading all that sh*t. I mean it. I've been trying to tell this to people for a loooong time. Every time I have the unfortune of traveling into/through Brooklyn I get a headache. The fakers are too much to bear..the society isn't even corrupt anymore. No- that would be describing them too nicely. Print this in every Jewish newspaper that hits the Boorklyn streets. Yes- EVERY one of them! Slap them in the face, shake 'em up just a wee bit. They deserve it.

*Dislaimer: There are those [shocker] who happen to live in this G-dforsaken boro, that do not have anything remotely to do with the criminals implied above. Living their lives as a good, upstanding Jew should. G-d help & preserve them ad me'ah v'esrim.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:36:00 AM  
Anonymous gross said...

I heard a tape of Nosson Kaminetzky yesterday. He was addressing a group of balabatim I suppose. He went off on the whole ban and explained how the likes of R' Elyashiv are being lied to and manipulated by highjackers of the religion. It was an incredible to listen to and I am siding w/ him on this one.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:46:00 AM  
Blogger Jake said...

Wow Loshon Hora posted on Tisha B'Av... you are a Heileker Yid indeed.

Rational people do not criticize someone else for having qualities which they obviously share... your repetitive, unsubstantiated and juvenile attempt to be motzei shem ra on literally hundreds of thousands of people only revealed the dubiousness of your claims in your profile.

What graduate of a prestigious University (I think you claim to have finished with honors too, right?) types in all caps? You could not have been a Humanities or Social Sciences major judging by your lack of word variety.

You say that people are calling you a mamzer but not a liar. Well that just changed. I don't believe a word of this. If making an exception (corrupt, sinful frum jews in Brooklyn) into a rule makes you feel good, go for it... just don't expect the real world to take you seriously. It makers for cute blogging though.

If it helps you justify your own spiritual failings, you are welcome to it. Sure it isn't intellectually honest, but clearly you aren't so concerned about that.

While I don't want to judge you, because I don't know you, this post sounds like a classic case of some overgrown child wanting to tell the world how much he hates his parents.

If you wish to complain that some people are like this, and the vast majority who are not should do something to stop it, fine. That is reasonable. But before you criticize other peoples observance of some mitzvos, go through this blog and see just how often you completely disregard halochah.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:08:00 PM  
Anonymous gross said...



Thursday, August 18, 2005 1:14:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...


I make NO claim and never did claim to be a HEILIGE YID!

Yes, I blogged on Tisha B'Av.
WOW! you got me.

There are so many people walking around that "live" in Disneyland.
G-D bless you.

There are also a whole group of people,in the billions,that think UBL is a really religious guy and just a cute gentleman going about his holy business.

There are also millions of people in mental hospitals that think the doctors are crazy.

There are also millions of people in jail that swear they never did anything wrong.

The point my friend,you are choosing to delude yourself or you are a plain DUNCE.

Have fum on your E ticket,oh yes,continue to keep your eyes closed!

Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:25:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I too agree that R' Elyashiv is being bamboozled, big time!

Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:26:00 PM  
Anonymous sechel said...

I think you are being too kind to
R.Elyashiv.For example he continues to keep his name on the ban of Slifkin.

Saturday, August 20, 2005 10:33:00 PM  
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Sunday, August 21, 2005 12:35:00 AM  
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Anonymous Anonymous said...

OUJ, Who abused you??? Kol Haposel...

Sunday, July 09, 2006 11:25:00 PM  
Blogger bagelox said...

"When I became convinced that the Universe is natural that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts, and bars, and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space. I was free.

free to think, to express my thoughts
free to live to my own ideal
free to live for myself and those I loved
free to use all my faculties, all my senses
free to spread imagination's wings
free to investigate, to guess and dream and hope
free to judge and determine for myself
free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the "inspired" books that savages have produced, and all the barbarous legends of the past
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no need to bow, or cringe, or crawl, or utter lying words.

I was free. I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously, faced all worlds. And then my heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heroes, the thinkers who gave their lives for the liberty of hand and brain for the freedom of labor and thought

to those who fell on the fierce fields of war
to those who died in dungeons bound with chains
to those who proudly mounted scaffold's stairs
to those whose bones were crushed, whose flesh was scarred and torn
to those by fire consumed
to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land, whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men.
And I vowed to grasp the torch that they had held, and hold it high, that light might conquer darkness still."

..........Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899), "Why Am I An Agnostic?", 1896

Friday, September 15, 2006 10:34:00 AM  

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