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Tuesday, September 27, 2005

A Tragedy In Our Midst

A Frum Skeptic e-mailed this to me.
Republished because of importance, controversy and popularity.

Frankly I am at a loss for words. I would be interested to know how everyone feels about gay people coming out of the closet, especially people with the title Rabbi, and all people who call themselves Frum.
I was afraid that eventually our community would be hit with this tragedy.
The person did NOT seek anonymity.

Rabbi Stadtmauer was the principal of Yeshivah of Flatbush High Scool
until he announced suddenly late last year that he would resign upon
the semester's end. Nobody officially knew why and the school had to
scramble and figure out who would lead for the organization since
Rabbi Stadtmauer gave them very short time to regroup. (The
administration ended up splitting the duties of principal into an
administrative position and an educational position and restructured
the entire leadership.)

Anyway, an interested student sent Rabbi Stadtmauer an email asking
why he left and Rabbi Stadtmauer responded in a rather surprising way:


The interested student asks:

"hey rabbi staudtmaure,

its "the interested student" ur former student from class 406 ; now
207. i wanted to know how everything is now that youve left flatbush-
we miss you. i also wanted to ask u a question thats personal so u
dont have to answer but id appreciate it cuz ive been hearing rumors
that youve come out in the open to say that your gay and that your
not so religious anymore and i have nothing against the gay part if
its true but i dont understand how you could give up your religion
that easily
if you could please answer

sincerely,

"the interested student""


And Rabbi Stadtmauer replies:


""the interested student",

It's always nice to hear I'm missed. Thank you so much for the courage
to ask. It's fine, and not too personal. No matter I may believe or
do, I'm still the same person who was willing to answer/talk about
anything in class. I hope other students have the guts as well.

As to the rumors, they are true. I appreciate your understanding about
my coming out and I think that your question is very well placed. The
truth is that nothing was easy, nor am I certain that I have "given up
my religion" for good. When I decided to step down from the
principalship, just over a year ago, it gave me a chance to rethink my
whole life - something very few people ever do. You remember that I
always continously explore and think and question. So I continued some
personal questions I had had many many years before, that I put aside
because of what it meant to me to be a rabbi and a teacher. But they
were just that - questions - not rejections or disbelief. When I
reopened the questions, I found that I was very comfortable with the
idea that mitsvot are a crucial way to approach God, and one that -
within the careful language of my classroom - one that I did (and
would now) encourage students to explore fully. However, increasingly
I had deep doubts I could not resolve for myself about their role in
my life.

Now there were many issues I was considering - the role of women in
orthodoxy, do i trust the authority of most rabbis, etc. But I also
had to think about how the Orthodox community would accept me as a gay
man. Honestly - I think most kids I know would be okay, but most
adults would not. Given how alone I have been all my life, I just
couldn't see fighting an uphill battle just to remain lonely in the
Orthodox community.

So for now, I re-exploring my spirituality and religiousity just more
slowly, without preconditions, and with the hope of integrating my
whole life and beliefs together. I still believe in the Value and
Truth of Torah, even if I don't feel bound by halacha. And I may yet
return to it later. Either way, I still believe deeply that a person
must first know their own tradition deeply from the inside before they
can even start exploring this stuff, so I have always and still do
believe that kids should pursue talmud torah and shmirat mitsvot.

Certainly, nothing was quick or sudden. It may have sounded that way
because it was important for me to finish the year well and keep the
Yeshivah stable (imagine if this rumor had floated last year!), so
you've heard it all at once. But for me, it's been a lifetime of
thought.

If you remember, at Arista, I spoke about how a person should listen
carefully in the hope of hearing "the voice of God" in their lives. I
believe that deeply, and that's part of the path I'm following. Almost
every day I ask Hashem to guide me on my next step. Maybe most people
think that's not religious, but that's okay, and I respect them.

I don't know if that answer helps, or if its satisfying. I know I left
a lot of holes in that explanation, so feel free to ask more.

Write more if you'd like and feel free to stay in touch. Next Tuesday
I leave for 3 months to Asia (not Micronesia, oh well, just
Japan-Thailand-Bhutan-Cambodia-Vietnam-Hong Kong). I'm looking forward
to Rosh Hashanah in Tokyo and Yom Kippur in Bangkok. While I'm away,
I'll check e-mail every few days, so stay in touch but responses might
be delayed.

Alan Stadtmauer

PS There's nothing in this note that's private, so if your friends
were wondering the same things, they can read this e-mail. In any
case, once again, thanks for questioning."

162 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 6:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, September 15, 2005 6:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Who cares? He is no longer retaining the title Rabbi. He stepped down from his position. At least he practices what he preaches and is honest with himself and everybody else.

Thursday, September 15, 2005 7:18:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 7:19:00 PM  
Blogger James said...

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 7:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Izzy said...

Unortho,
ur not Rabbi Stadtmauer are you???

Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why do you address this as a tragedy. They have not just recently infiltrated our community but were always imeshed in every facet of every society and social group. The guy in a gartel and a rekel who has his own shtenda in back of your shteibel could be a homo and so could the guy who works in the fish store or even the driver who picks up your kids or grandkids at the corner. It's jut out in the open now. That;s alll

Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:10:00 PM  
Anonymous sechel said...

I'm concerned about the effects his leaving mitzvah observance will have on his students.These are adolescent kids who are developing their religious identity.

Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:35:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

There is a difference when one person commits a sin and hides it because he realizes it's wrong, and someone who is not ashamed of his behavior.
I do not know this guy so I can not judge his " coming out" as being caught or he just got caught up in the gay movement's "pride of who they are" as people.
I am sickened with the notion that it's OK, because atleast he was honest.
Of course it's horrible behavior either way.
The end of civilization is over if somehow this becomes acceptable behavior, because he was honest about it.

Friday, September 16, 2005 12:46:00 AM  
Blogger Acher said...

Dosent the Torah teach that if you are going to sin, dress up incognito and go to another town away from your own???

I wonder how he will afflict himself on Yom Kippur in the holy city of Bangkok.

"I leave for 3 months to Asia (not Micronesia, oh well, just
Japan-Thailand-Bhutan-Cambodia-Vietnam-Hong Kong). I'm looking forward
to Rosh Hashanah in Tokyo and Yom Kippur in Bangkok."

Friday, September 16, 2005 2:20:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let's not gay bash now. I tend to agree with you most of the time but why is this case so significant? The "coming-out" aspect is an isolated one. This is not a widespread problem; it is barely a problem for that matter. He left the community. What more do you want? Should he be living a lie? Listen, most people don't agree with this behavior, it's not a secret and he won't turn any of the students gay - that's for sure.

Friday, September 16, 2005 2:57:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

could you just imagine the turmoil & personal anguish the man has gone through. he just felt he couldn't go on like that anymore. he obviously has become part of a community who accepts him for what he is. how many of us fake frummies carry on a daily charade of phony davening, fake bentching and the like

Friday, September 16, 2005 11:19:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

No Gay bashing here.
Just commenting that the Jewish people have been dealt another challenge by this "coming out".

We will be seeing more people coming out like in the society at large, and that will eventually lead to the desensitising of this aberration.
What about some of his students who were struggling with this?

Rather than controlling their urges of experimenting with this lifestyle, they may feel no restraint because of the "rabbi's" behavior.
There is no parallel with the fake bentching....in my opinion.
The Gay machla is civilization threatening...

Friday, September 16, 2005 11:53:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have mixed feelings about this article and the comments. I think it is wrong to "come out" to his students this way - they are young, impressionable, and most likely not able to handle the double news of his sexuality and his rejection of an halachic lifestyle.
On the other hand, many young people - raised frum, learning in yeshiva, and who take Yiddishkeit and their spiritual growth seriously - are faced at adolescence with the discovery that they are gay and must make some real decisions about their lives. The frum community has really failed to address this with a sense of reality and sensitivity. Even the Catholic Church - with an equally strong opposition to homosexuality - has created organizations such as Courage which keep their young people close to their faith and chaste, providing them a community of like-minded people. Until the frum community does some similar, young (and older) gay people, unfortunately, may continue to reject their faith and their heritage to be who they are.

Friday, September 16, 2005 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

Anonymous,

There are no answers for some problems. Seeking to create a "community" of such people -- youth , no less -- seems like a very bad idea. Mendacious, in fact.

Friday, September 16, 2005 1:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I disagree with Mr. Kelsey - There are answers for questions - there may be no one brave enough or sensitive enough to face these questions. The old answers don't work ("Just get married, everything will work out, etc) You cannot write off neshomos because you're too nervous to deal with an issue. Or maybe we might have to face the fact that many frum people don't care about the neshomos of their fellow Jews and are ready to write them off. If so, perhaps after 120 years, when they stand before Hashem for din v'cheshbon, they'll be worse off than a gay Jew who does his best with the cards he's been dealt.

Friday, September 16, 2005 2:56:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

There is no way for the Orthodox to absorb gays as activist gays. Only as individual Jews whose personal life is none of our business.

I am not telling them to get married. I am not writing anyone off. I am saying their are limits and problems with gay activism for the Orthodox community.

Anonymous, when I am the defender of the frum community on this site, you know you are in Left field.

Friday, September 16, 2005 3:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Again to Mr. Kelsey - I'm not talking in any way about social activism or Jews who want to be frum and actively gay -or gays who want to confront the fum community. I'm simply saying that a frum young person, discovering himself to be gay - cannot even find rabeim who can handle the situation calmly or intelligently.
Have a good Shabbos

Friday, September 16, 2005 3:41:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

There is no GAY CARD cetain people are dealt with.
This is a lifestyle choice that is made consciously.
I will agree that certain people have certain taivus that may be more appealing to them than others.
Ultimately, we all struggle with different needs(we think), and attractions.
For Gays to somehow be accepted as an ALTERNATIVE lifestyle that should be accepted in Judaism, is dead wrong.
We become no different than any other people that give in to their every desire and temptation.

Friday, September 16, 2005 4:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Extremely powerful letter. This guy has his head screwed on straight, regardless of his sexual identity. Very admirable decision he made, and very difficult too, I am sure.

Friday, September 16, 2005 4:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why not gay bash? The torah calls it an abomination. I for one can not accept the torah saying that about an "uncontrollable urge" or a "predetermined lifestyle".

Saturday, September 17, 2005 6:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why not gay bash? The torah calls it an abomination. I for one can not accept the torah saying that about an "uncontrollable urge" or a "predetermined lifestyle". Jerusalem jew

Saturday, September 17, 2005 7:07:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

HEY I KNOW A BUNCH OF GUYS WHO WILL REMAIN IN NYC FOR THE HIGH HOLIDAYS,U SEE YOU DONT HAVE TO GO TO THAILAND OR BHUTAN OR NEPAL OR JUST ANY OTHER CHALERA,THEY CAN STAY IN BANG COCK RIGHT HERE
HEY IF I HAD ONLY KNOWN...I WOULD HAVE GIVEN UNCLE ALLAN A LIST OF THE PLACES TO GO ON EREV SHABBOS,LIKE ZUPNICKS etc.etc....

Monday, September 19, 2005 1:27:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I'll pass it along!
Hey, who is Zupnick?

Monday, September 19, 2005 1:36:00 AM  
Anonymous yaakov said...

I'm totally speechless over this email.
Where does this animal get the right to write about his personal preferences to young impressionable teenagers?
When he undertook the job to be the principal of an orthodox jewish school, he also undertook to impart a certain definitive life style upon these children. Even if he believes that G-d understands his cause, he took home a weekly paycheck to do a job. Isn't it unethical to take money for one thing and then use it for another?
If he absolutely had to come out of the closet, couldn't he find a closet that that was ethically suited for his warped lifestyle?

Professionals claim that homosexuality is inborn in a person.

I say HOGWASH!

Everybody out there needs an excuse for their moral depravity.
To the homosexual it's inborn. To the philanderer, he's just a man. To the thief, he's got to feed his family. And on and on and on....

People need to get a grip on themselves, and should become cognizant of the fact that they're flawed.
It rips me apart to hear people justifying their cause in self-rightous indignation.

IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM, ADMIT IT. ONLY THEN DO YOU HAVE THE OPTION OF HELPING YOURSELF!!!

Monday, September 19, 2005 11:56:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Yaakov,
Exactly my sentiments.

Monday, September 19, 2005 5:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As someone who was a student when Rabbi Stadtmauer was a teacher at Yeshivah of Flatbush - I wish him well. He is a remarkable teacher and man. Who always treated students with respect as young adults capable of critical thinking. His honesty is perhaps not appreciated by some - it makes me respect him even more.

Monday, September 19, 2005 9:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If someone reading this is dealing with a similar crisis the following resources may help:

http://www.tremblingbeforeg-d.com/

http://wrestlingwithgodandmen.com/

Monday, September 19, 2005 9:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the well-intentioned people who empathize with the plight of the frum homosexual and wish for more openness and understanding:

You mean well but are you crazy?! There is no way that a frum, closet-homosexual can deal with this and still be part of the community. Most people would necer join a support group - it will cause irrevocable damage amongst this insular Klal.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:55:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In another comment a former student wrote "His honesty is perhaps not appreciated by some - it makes me respect him even more".

After reading these remarks I feel compelled to respond to this delusional student. There is absolutely nothing truthful of Rabbi Stadtmauer’s comments. He is an incredibly lonely man who feels terrible about what he is doing. Yet he feels the need to rationalize what he deep down knows to be wrong. He does not want to be perceived, and more importantly does not want to see himself, as somebody who gives into his desires.

I would respect him a lot more if he simply said he couldn’t control himself anymore. (Not that the behavior would be respecatable) That would be the truth and nothing more

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:47:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Above Anonymous,
I could not have said it better myself.
UOJ

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suggest all you people who think being gay is some sort of plague watch the documentary Tremble Before God. No one, like Alan Stadtmauer, who comes from an incredible family, would ever CHOOSE to be gay. His life would be so much simpler if he was straight, married, and had his 4 children. Why is it so hard to believe that just like any other syndrome, like Downs, he was BORN this way? Just like we were born straight and the thought of a same sex relationship repulses us, HE was born gay and the thought of a straight relationship repulses him. Thank GOD he did not choose to fake his life, get married and inflict his pain on an innocent woman like MANY, MANY Rabbis are suggesting some men do. (I suppose it's OK for a Frum Rabbi to tell someone to lie, as long as the person lying LOOKS frum)

As far as the students being affected by this, sure, they're asking questions. I oughtta know, I'm a YofF parent. But there is no chance of a kid BORN straight becoming gay because their principal was gay, much as there is little chance someone who feels an attraction to the same sex is one day going to wake up deciding he/she is really straight.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 6:08:00 PM  
Anonymous If I am not myself who am I said...

For someone who claims to decry the fanatacism, hypocrisy, and blatant hatred within the Orthodox world, you have managed to become just as blinded as those you speak out against. How many similar blogs are there where the decidedly more competent take issue with various members and tenets of the Orthodox establisment? There are obviously problems with rebbeim espousing racist epithets, closed-minded ideologies, and backwards thinking, and for all that talk you are obviously no better than those you denounce.

Saying "there is no Gay Card," that it is a "[conscious] lifestyle choice" not only contradicts nearly all reputable opinions, it is also offensive to a large portion of our society and delegitimizes Orthodox Judaism in the eyes of many. I doubt Rabbi Stadtmauer, who dealt with loneliness and bitter internal conflict, felt it was much of a choice. Neither do the hundreds of frum--and more than likely formerly frum--Jews struggling with this. I would bet the world that some of the people you know and trust, classmates at yeshiva day school, friends from camp, NCSY or BA, fellow students at YU and even better institutions, are similarly afflicted but are too scared to let you know for the damage you would do them. These are not "activist gays," just kids trying to deal with something you could not possibly comprehend.

There are clear distinctions between mitzvot bein adam lechavero and beind adam lemakom. Killing a man is "sickening" and "horrible behavior." Eating treif is not, though God tells us not to. In the last few parshiot, the word "toevah" (translated as abomination, the same word used regarding homosexual sex) was used to describe sacrificing an animal with a "moom" (Shoftim 17:1) and idolatry (17:4). These are not objectively evil actions, although they not in line with what God expects of us.

I'm not saying you should condone actions in colfict with the commandments of God. I am saying, however, that it is not your prerogative to judge, and I am particularly offended and disgusted by you condemning a personal crisis as "the end of civilization." By so damning a group of people like this with such hateful and antiquated rhetoric, you end up detracting from your own credibility. You only manage to further push away those already rejected by Orthodoxy, as well as confirm notions in those already unhappy with Orthodoxy that the Orthodox movement has lost touch with modernity. I place the blame squarely on supposed progressives like yourself for clearly illustrating exactly how out of touch Orthodoxy has become.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 6:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

**Clap clap clap** Well said. It's because of people like these, who have these antiquated, closed minded, judgemental views, that I am no longer orthodox. I came from a very frum family. My grandfather wore a shtreimel, my siblings and I went to very frum yeshivas but the entire orthodox wing of Judaism has become so two faced, so hypocritical that I was forced to question and eventually leave. Everything is OK with frum people as long as everyone LOOKS the part. Women and men can lie and cheat and f*ck around but if they LOOK frum, then it's all OK and the men get an aliyah in shul.

If Alan Stadtmauer had gotten married and never told anyone he was gay, THAT would have been OK. It wouldn't matter that he probably ruined a woman's life in the process, so long as he looks frum and plays the part.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I'm sure all you people who are ready to hang him for being truthful have some skeleton in your Orthodox closet. Who's to say yours are any better or worse than his.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 6:25:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Firstly, I am not a Gay basher.
I have a different and well researched opinion, even if you do not agree with me.
There are well known interviews with people who have experimented with the Gay lifestyle, and agree with me.
All I am saying is that certain people are born with yetzer haras for different things.
I am NOT basing my opinion even on Halacha, I really am not.
Civilization can not perpetuate itself if the homosexual agenda prevails, period.
It has NOTHING to do with my religion.
It is well established that MOST gay people have had a difficult and repressed relationship with their mothers.
I AM NOT KNOCKING ANY INDIVIDUAL, nor do I criticize people that are struggling with their demons, I firmly believe that the evidence is on my side.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 6:46:00 PM  
Anonymous jason said...

Most of you idiots sound like nazi's the way you are responding to this. rather than berate and cast out homosexuals from the Jewish community we should accept them as they were before because they are still Gods ccreatures, they are still Jews they are still out brothers. Yes the torah considers homosexuality a sin but who out there does not and who are we to judge who in the community is a greater sinner. Why can the guy who steals millions and cheat on his taxes be called for an aliyah on yom kippur while a person just because they are gay is considered an outcast. The only abomination are those who believe in bashing and outcasting.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 6:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ya know. you are entitled to your opinion but there is no way I will ever believe that the vast majority of gay people are just giving in to some taivah or their yetser harah and that it's a choice they make. Would YOU CHOOSE to have sex with a same sex partner? (Life would be so much easier being straight) Sure there are some who grew up in messed up homes and became gay and some who think lesbian chic is cool. But, let me tell you about a kid I know. When he was about 5 years old he said when he grew up he wants to design dresses with rubies and diamonds. This kid was BORN gay. He only wanted to wear his sister's panties. This same child goes to yeshiva and is now 19 and he can pretend all he wants, and his parents can pretend all they want, and he can get married and have kids but he IS gay. Whether or not he chooses to act on his desires is a different story. Me'az ume-tamid there have been gays and always will be. It doesn't mean the end of civilization. Maybe it's just God's way of population control.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:00:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Jason,
I am not in favor of PUNISHING Gay people or shaming them in any way.
It's difficult for me to believe that the huge increase in the number of Gay people is not because that it has become an OK lifestyle.
It has always been considered to be aberrent behavior.
DISCLAIMER:
I am NOT a doctor or a professional, I am merely stating an opinion that is accepted by 99% of the world's population.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You say, "It's difficult for me to believe that the huge increase in the number of Gay people is not because that it has become an OK lifestyle." WRONG. The latest study just out last week showed that among those questioned, 10% fall into a category you would call being gay. It's been 10% since surveys were taken.

You say "I am NOT a doctor or a professional, I am merely stating an opinion that is accepted by 99% of the world's population." Wrong Where do you get your facts and figures from?????? Change that to 99% of the orthodox jewish community.

If it's a matter of acting on ones yetser harah as you say, and animals have no free will or yetser harah, why is there homoesexual behavior even in the animal kingdom? Actually, some same-sex birds do do it. So do beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, and orangutans. Zoologists are discovering that homosexual and bisexual activity is not unknown within the animal kingdom.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:26:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Are you telling me that 10% of the world's population or 600 million people are homosexual???

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:36:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm telling you that wherever surveys are taken, it seems to be that 1 in 10 falls into the category of being strictly homosexual as it ALWAYS HAS BEEN. Perhaps you should educate yourself on the topic rather than forming an opinion based on emotions, before you draw conclusions.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:41:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Prove it buddy!
E-mail me the survey, or refer me to your reliable survey.
a_unorthodoxjew@yahoo.com
I'm not buying this B.S., until I can verify it for myself!

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Kfira said...

I take issue with a few things you said:

"Civilization can not perpetuate itself if the homosexual agenda prevails, period."

What?!? What is exactly is the "homosexual agenda"? To turn everyone gay? Is homosexuality contagious? Are the Gays forcing it on an unsuspecting generation of youth? Will people stop being straight and having kids if we give in to the Gay Agenda? What are you trying to say?

"There are well known interviews with people who have experimented with the Gay lifestyle, and agree with me." Agree with you about what? That being gay is bad? And what's the "Gay lifestyle"? Not all of them run around in pink hot-pants. Some are doctors, lawyers, law-makers, Jews, and day school principles who happen to be attracted to guys.

Alfred Kinsey was the first to posit the 10% figure, though contested, is widely cited to this day. A skewed though decently thorough rundown of history and numbers can be found here:
http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRI_AIM_Talk.html

The lowest estimations do indeed hover above 1%, though that doesn't really address your assertion that your "opinion is accepted by 99% of the world's population." A few countries have legalized gay marriage and lots of big cities worldwide have sizable gay communities that are looked upon with respect by their straigt residents.

As far as it having "always been considered to be aberrent behavior," you're off there too. Try doing some research this time and check out the Greeks, Romans, quite a few Native American, African, and Asian-Pacific tribes, and the list goes on.

I'd confidently venture that "the huge increase in the number of Gay people is not because that it has become an OK lifestyle." Nature or nurture is moot here because either arguement implies that there would be the same number of people attracted to their own regardless of why. That being gay is now widely accepted as "an OK lifestyle" (which would contradict your 99% statement) really only means that more people are willing to admit they are gay.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 8:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People here are losing sight of the real issue. I don't believe people want to be gay. It is a far to painful lifestyle/admission to make. That is not the point.

The two points that can be debated are 1) being that one has homosexual tendencies what shoud one do. Does one give into their natural desires or does one try their best to overcome their natural inclination. I believe if one would look into the torah the answer would be clear.

Second and more important if one does give into their desires how should one do it. The problem becomes when one tries to make a belief system out of it. I am orthodox and unfortunately often speak lashon hara. I do not try to fit that sin though as part of my new world view. Instead i admit i have a problem and try to deal with it.
I think that would have been the proper model for Alan.Instead he wrote a letter tyring to fit his naturual homosexual desires into his life hashkafa.

I cannot judge another man for what he chooses to do. Thank G-d i was not born with that yetzer (I have enough of my own thank you) I just wish he would have been more honest in the letter

Alum of flatbush

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:28:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Alum Of Flatbush & Kfira,
G-d bless you both and all of Klal Yisroel.

Shana Tova

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 3:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Where is my highly-vaunted free will? I could not choose my mother or my father, the country where I was born, whether I have dark brown hair or blue eyes or any part of my genetic history. I could not choose that I am Sephardi, Ashkenazi or goy. If I didn't choose these things, Who did?

I believe that God is the cause of all of this. Everyone must ask him or herself what is the purpose of their life? What does God want from me?

We each are playing our own holy roles, as assigned by God and we are never aware of it until we achieve spirituality (and I a'int talking about muttering meaningless words in Hebrew at 100 mph and shuckling up and down like on an automated see-saw).

It doesn't matter if you are homo or hetero because, in reality, nothing matters. There is No Thing. There is only God and we are all part of Him.

This discussion that is going on about whether this opinion is right or that is right is nothing more that mental masturbation.

May we all come closer to Him and receive His delight!

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 4:35:00 PM  
Anonymous Yoseph Avraham said...

I agree! Who made all of you "holier than Hashem" that you should judge the Rabbi!? He is living his life honestly now and should be applauded, not condemned...would it be better for him to live a lie? Wouldn't living a lie be a bigger aveira ? is he to hide? to be ashmed? Hashem created all of us the way he wanted us to be, in his image, and some of us are straight and some of us are gay etc. What right do any of us have to condemn him for making the choice to live his life as he was created...he is living it honestly and openly. Rabbi Stadtmauer is a true leader and one that our children SHOULD look up to for upholding the midot and the laws of honesty and integrity that they learn in school. Should they be taught to hide and lie as they get older??? If so, what message are we sending them? What if it was your child who had to hide and lie? Aren't we, as parents and as members of the frum community, supposed to send a message of unconditional love and support to our children? A message of tolerance and NOT a message of hate and bigotry? I WANT my kids to know this story and meet this man...they will learn about love and acceptance and self acceptance...and the destructive power of intolerance!

In this month of Elul as the yamim noraim approach, May Hashem be as lenient and tolerant of you as you are with him. Shame on those of you who can't see beyond your bigotted and close minded viewpoints...and a bracha on those of you that can. It is because of the lack of tolerance and understanding in our frum community that young people and even some older people who have been frum all their lives have chosen to leave frumkite. I hope we all learn to be more tolerant of those around us...only then can we survive and earn the respect we deserve as a loving people. Hatzlacha and bracha and a shana tova to all and may hashem open the hearts and minds of the intolerant.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a member of the extended YofF family, I think you have missed the big picture. Regardless of Alan Stadtmauer orientation, he, in no way, tried to impress upon his students a homosexual agenda. Furthermore, he has been inundated with questions from former students and as such probably felt an obligation to them to explain his hashkafic u-turn. a teacher's relationship with his students is always a 2-way street and as such, if the teacher does something out of the ordinary, he, as an educator, must explain himself. and that's what Mr. Stadtmauer did. Whether or not his ideological problems with modern-day Judaism is just a front, no one here knows for certain, and I would imagine that our general attitude on this matter is driving our impressions of his letter (was it sincere problems or just a rationalization?).
That being said, the bigger problem is how YofF has been handling this matter, ignoring it for weeks, and only now addressing the problem. What's even more problematic is that the faculty member who sets the tone for the school has the attitude of "see no evil, hear no evil" complelty refusing to deal with this matter. regardless of how mr. stadtmauer has responded to his former students, what's even more problematic is how the "frum" faculty hasn't addressed the issue. how do you let high school kids talk amongst themselves wihtout giving them a proper torah-infused perspective on this matter? they have acted completely shameful in this matter.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 6:40:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

I NEVER condemned him, I condemn the lifestyle.
Forget for a moment the "abomination" that the Torah calls it.
It is not a behavior that perpetuates life, which is a primary purpose of the human species.
How do you explain the fact that so many people were able to "become" heterosexual after years of "being" Gay?

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 6:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Who are these people who've 'become' heterosexual? I've yet to see one.
As for perpetuation of life being the primary purpose of the human species, this means we are not any better than animals who are here just to reproduce. Incidentally, you'd be placing people who are frum but unable to conceive in the same category.
At any rate, maybe when you'll have a daughter and she grows up to marry a 'man who is struggling with it,' and then she finds out, after 15 years of marriage, that he was never attracted to her, could never give her what she needed, and entered into the relationship in a deceitful basis--when he finally decides he can't do it anymore and splits, and she's left alone with not even good memories to hang on to--maybe then you'll begin to think it's not so simple, that it's acutally immoral, to tell a gay man to try to overcome his natural inclination, because when he does that, he destroys many lives. It's sad that many in the frum world wait many years, after they've built families etc. to come out of the closet. If we were more open to dicussions of homosexuality maybe young people would admit to their inclinations instead of trying to hide them and going on to build families and relationships that end with tragedy. This is nothing short of a shame, and the only reason it is not squarely dealt with, is because it is women who have to bear the brunt of marrying supposedly straight men who end up walking out on them because they are gay. Yes, divorce happens among straight people as well, but addressing the issue instead of skirting it would save much grief and sadness for those who find themselves in this difficult situation. G-d forbid a rabbi should tell a young man who comes to him with these problems, "it will pass once you get married" or some similar nonsense, yet this happens. It's enough to make anyone ashamed of such leadership.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:21:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

You and fellow anonymous posters are very eloquent with your writings.

I am not there so I do NOT know what are the issues Gay people struggle with.

You are wrong in my assumotions.
1-there were many shows, I believe on one of the cable channels that had a host of formerly Gay people on.
Just because you are not aware.....

2-ONE of the MANY purposes of life is to procreate......
3-Medical issues of infertility are NOT tantamount to homosexual sex. Give me a break.
4-Medical studies I have read over the years indicate that homosexual people have hormonal imbalances.
I know many men who have feminine characteristics but are not Gay.
I know many women with masculine characteristics who are happily married.
HOW DO I KNOW?
I KNOW!
I do not have all the answers and never pretended to.
I am not in your shoes, so I can only make educated assumptions based on lots of reading.
You may disagree with me.

Kol Hakovod!

I am not ready to buy into the Gay gene theory as of yet.

I am not BASHING anyone!

Shana Tova!

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:28:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

it's amazing that your information comes from cable-tv shows

kinsey was the basis for calling 10% of the population homosexual - he measured sexuality on a spectrum of 1 to 7 - 1 being exclusively homosexual and 7 being exclusively heterosexual - his thesis/findings (based on years of study, surveys, etc. and widely criticized for many reasons) was/were that 10% were exclusively homo and 10% were exclusively hetero and the rest of population was inbetween . . . the domonating mother theory has not been taken seriously by any legitimate scientists for the last few decades - how many of your friends, especially jewish, especially frum, (maybe even you) can say they didn't have a domineering-pushy mother?

no one has ever shown that sexual orientation can be changed - what there are, are people who say they were living as gay/lesbian and are now living as heteros - that simply means (for men) that they're managing to get erections (if they're that lucky) with women - could be they started out bisexual, could be they take viagra and think of a burly sweaty football player while doing it with their wives/partners, could be . . .

science has for years been able to measure sexual response in the individual male (and female too)- heart rate, penile tumescence, etc. are all measurable and are used to test with the stimulii of pics of naked men and women

no evidence of anyone's actual responses ever having been changed by any therapy

your statements are so out of the ball park that they betray your having little information on the subject . . .

in all fairness, as a gay man who grew up in a very frum family, i've had much thought, talk and learning taht i went through to be where i am today
. . .

nonetheless, you are obliged to inform yourself before spouting out silly and potentially damaging misinformation - and i don't mean from watching Oprah - try books, journals, etc.

i can give you a starter list if you're actually interested in learning about the gay/frum issue

btw, the torah never called homosexuality a to'evah (abomination) - homosexuality is a late 19th century construct
only the capital offense (isur) of mishcav zachar which the g'marah explains to mean anal intercourse is the torah's prohibition which is called a to'evah - oral sex and anything else that you might call gay behavior is not included in the isur d'oraytah (the Torah's textual prohibition)

Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:14:00 AM  
Blogger duvduv said...

p.s.

why are comments removed by the blog administrator

that's a little scary

Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Both heterosexual and homosexual men and women seek pleasure in a member of the opposite/same sex. In both these cases, we are only following our egos and that's the way God made us - to slavishly follow our egos. There is no difference whether you follow your ego to a person of the same or the opposite sex.

Until we do the spiritual work of bitul ha yesh or study in a Kabbalistic group with a focus of spiritual advancement and not the mere acquisition of knowledge (another egoistic endeavour so common amongst), we will be slaves to our egos and it doesn't matter if you're gay or straight.

There is no such thing as God waiting to punish us: let's leave that to Mommy, Daddy, the kehillah and the rebbeim. There is only a God who wants us to receive but we need to prepare our kelim to receive altruistically.

In fact, the mere argument that we're having is an egoistic endeavour (my own included ;) as we all get pleasure in competing to see who knows more Torah than the other or whose argument is better. That's not what the Torah is about. That's egoism.

We are not separate: we are one and our separation is an illusion. There is only One. We cannot come close to knowing Its Mysterious Ways.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:15:00 AM  
Blogger Lisa said...

http://lamrot-hakol.blogspot.com/2005/09/real-tragedy.html

I'd say shame on you for your viciousness, but you're apparently beyond shame.

You have some valid complaints about some of the things the frum community does. But you're as bad as the worst of them.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:09:00 PM  
Blogger Ezzie said...

Just a couple of quick notes, after skimming the comments...

There was an article in Newsweek a couple of years ago which discussed people who had overcome their homosexuality; and their belief that it is something that is controllable, much like any other desire to do something that is (or is perceived as) wrong.

Second, it usually does stem from a hormonal imbalance. I know a charedi man who liked fooling around with little boys (he has since been divorced by his wife, the mother of his 7 children)... He takes medicines to control those imbalances. When he takes his medicines, he is just like everybody else; when he does not, he has a high tendency to search for boys to fool around with (along with, as apparently is often the case, fooling around with other gays and bi-sexuals and being involved in orgies... i say apparently the case, because the doctors in that case stated as much when it was discovered that he was hanging out with other sexual deviants and pedophiles).

Personally, I think homosexuality is a combination of societal acceptance 'turning' many gay, combined with desires of some to be 'different', and added to a small percentage that actually feel desires for members of their own sex - but that, as the Torah says, is something they should control.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:56:00 PM  
Blogger Ezzie said...

I see no more reason to accept homosexual sex than murder or robbery: Kleptomaniacs and murderers are held responsible for their actions, even though they had inborn desires to do what they did; why should a gay person be any different?

Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i was a student at flatbush some years ago when rabbi stadtmauer was just a young teacher. he was enthusiastic and likebale, unlike a great many old fart rabbis who were narrow minded and grotesque. i came out as a gay man myself a few years after leaving flatbush. it's a good school academically. it's also full of homophobia, intolerance, and stupidity. good for stadtmauer! i hope he finds his way. he did the right thing by rejecting loneliness in the midst of religious fundamentalism that denigrates homosexuals. he will be missed by his students -- of that i'm sure! very few rabbis have a true experience of pain that makes them teach from the heart rather than from a collection of platitudes and superstitions.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 5:18:00 PM  
Blogger Rahel said...

Several times in my life I've had the very unpleasant experience of being groped by men on buses. I'm sure that the perpetrators were straight. But even though I suffered from the actions of a few, would I say that all straight people are gropers (or rapists or predators of children)? Not unless I was prejudiced or ignorant, or both.

By the same token, people who say that all gay people are potential or actual predators are prejudiced or ignorant, or both. The Torah doesn't make such a vicious (and false) accusation. So why do we?

As I learned it, the Torah prohibits a specific act between two men. That's it. Most of what I've been reading here is astonishing prejudice and hatred that has nothing to do with the specific Torah prohibition of mishkav zakhar.

I think that it took a lot of courage for Rabbi Stadtmauer to be honest about his reasons for resigning his position. As for the mistaken (and, in my opinion, downright malicious) assertion that he could influence his students to "become" gay -- that's total nonsense. It's the kind of garbage spouted by people who are unwilling to take a deeper look -- or any kind of look at all -- at the problems in their communities.

The lack of willingness to deal with these issues honestly causes untold suffering and harm to many people. Yet we persist in ignoring them, or treating those who suffer from them in the most vicious way, in order to spare ourselves the discomfort of having to face them.

Rahmanim benei rahmanim, indeed.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 5:28:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

ATTENTION:
The only comments ever deleted are outright profanities.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 5:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mein liebe Jidelach,

Please, I beg you, no matter whatever your beliefs about homosexuality are, it is of supreme importance that we not confuse sexual orientation with sexual addiction/sexual compulsion!!!!

Sexual orientation is a neutral state of being. Sexual addiction is a form of addiction that is passed from family to family, generation to generation, just like alcoholism.

Jews are definitely not exempt from this (or any other addiction for that matter) and it doesn't discriminate against gays and straights - it takes them all.

Sexual compulsion/sexual addiction is the inability to control one's sexual desires and the person feels compelled to carry them out, the he or she cannot stop and they often in degrading circumstances that leave the sexual addict feeling extremly ashamed, entirely alone and guilt-ridden.

There are many gay sex addicts but you need go no further than your local SLAA (Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous) or SA (Sexaholics Anonymous) to find all the heterosexual ones--men and women!

So please, please don't do us all a disservice and add to people's shame or insecurity about their sexuality by saying that gay people are oversexed. It may be true but it's not caused by their being gay.

If you know someone who suffers from this disease, you can refer them to SCA or SLAA. There they can get the help they need.

And BTW, many people are hiding some secret (even happily married people do) and most people in general could benefit from some 12 step program. So don't scoff.

Addiction thrives in secret so is it any surprise to us that gay people, having had all these negative ideas pumped into their heads about themselves since they were small children, having had no opportunity to express their sexuality under "normal" circumstances, crushes etc., after all those years of bottling up every single feeling that they have ever had about their sexuality for fear someone God forbid should find out, should all of a sudden be able to recover from their childhoods without any damage?

Cut us some slack, guys! You know you owe us more fairness than what some on this list have offered.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 6:00:00 PM  
Blogger Reb Yudel said...

Sexual addiction? Inability to control his urges?

You're making a lot of assumptions about the rabbi on very little evidence. From everything I've ever heard about him, and from all my contacts with him, Rabbi Stadtmauer is a man of boundless integrity.

I think the real ideological challenge that the frum community has to confront face on is that the whole haredi lifestyle is based on penis-control. Women have to swelter in hot stockings so men won't get an erection. 2nd graders have to go to segregated schools because.... well, ultimately so men won't get an unauthorized erection.

Is our purpose on this world simply to avoid erections so we can be rewarded in the world to come?

That's a question that can be outgrown once you're married... unless you're gay, in which case sex remains a huge problem.

And I think it's fair to ask, should sex be that central an issue in one's religious life?

Personally, there were some of the questions that led me to outgrow Orthodoxy. I suspect that it was the imperatives of these sorts of questions that led him to realize not only that he was gay, but that he was no longer Orthodox. Had it only been about sex -- like you seem to think -- then he could have indeed lived a double life. But Rabbi Stadtmauer always had much more integrity than that.

Friday, September 23, 2005 1:24:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

reb yudel,

you misunderstand what i am trying to say: i am not making any assumptions about rabbi stadtmauer; in fact i wasn't referring to him at all when i spoke about sexual addiction. i was responding to someone who equated sexual orientation and sexual addiction in his comments.

all i know is that rabbi stadtmauer (did you know that his last name means "city wall" in german?) is gay and just because he is gay doesn't mean he is a sex addict.

eyal

Friday, September 23, 2005 9:51:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

p.s. yudele, i do agree with you though that all that emphasis on avoiding erections and no expressing sexuality and obsessive sexual segregation can in many people lead to sexual repression and obsessive sexual/romantic thoughts. this is unfortunately exacerbated when one is gay since he/she must hide all his/her feelings from others.

-moi again

Friday, September 23, 2005 9:55:00 AM  
Blogger duvduv said...

Lisa - who were you saying "shame on you for your viciousness"

i didn't get it,

duvduv

Friday, September 23, 2005 1:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

I see no more reason to accept homosexual sex than murder or robbery: Kleptomaniacs and murderers are held responsible for their actions, even though they had inborn desires to do what they did; why should a gay person be any different? -- Ezzie

I see a big difference between murdering someone and being a homosexual. But hey, I guess that's just me.

<33

~Matt~

Friday, September 23, 2005 1:42:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you know, for a minority group that's been persecuted by the majority all those years ago y'all sure have big mouths when it comes to talking sh*t about gays and lesbians. It's natural, not a choice (no one would choose to be discriminated against), gays are everywhere, they're perfectly normal people, and if you believe it's a far-from-bed show then you obviously live under a rock

Friday, September 23, 2005 1:50:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

Ezzie, if you see no reason to distinguish between kleptomania and homosexuality then you must treat them halachically the same - kleptomania (which arguably, by halachic standards as well as common law standards - )in an uncontrollable form (like Oliver Sacks' case histories in "The Man Who Though His Wife Was a Hat") would render the stealing to be done by a person who is non compos mentis and therefore the person would not be held culpable for the crime/transgression - in halachic circles today, the most common time that rabbanim excuse prohibited behavior on this basis is in the cases of suicides but the principal remains valid for any averah if done by reason of mental incapacity

to the thoughtful person, one of the significant differences between lust to commit any sin and homosexual orientation is that for many homosexual people, there is no way they can ever cross the abyss of loneliness and come together with another human being as one without being rejected by the ignorant fundamentalist communities who just don't want to be bothered by these troublesome people

while hormonal imbalances have been posited as a cause of homosexuality, those studies were talking about the pregnant mother's imbalances while she was carrying her future gay child - there is no evidence of any corelation between hormone (specifically testosterone) levels and homosexual orientation though many studies tried to show just that

the frum guy you were referring to who takes medicine is not being treated for hormonal imbalance - he is being chemically castrated - i.e., he's taking estrogen or some testosterone blockers to diminish (and usually, eliminate) his libido - the actual desire for boys does not get treated - just his desire for sexual activity

like many who don't experience or read much about homosexuality, you and UOJ and thousands of others don't get that the more permissive society we now live in may well be why more people are open but not that more people are actually gay -
depending on the repressive societies of the past, many GAY "morannos" lived as best as they could and some married and some even had children and may have lived happy or miserable lives

just think for a moment if you were raised in a society that said you have to marry another man (and the very thought of touching another man was repulsive to your inner core, as i assume it might be) and love/sex with a woman is a disgusting perversion that is an abomination to G-d, how lonely and miserable you would be - especially if you wanted to love and be loved by Hashem

your simplistic charectarizations betray a gross insensitivity and ignorance of what gay people actually deal with - hardly comparable to your passing desire to kill the guy who rear-ended your new car or cheated you in a business deal

the ex-gay movement is not taken very seriously by any legitimate scientists/researchers for the reasons i and other people mentioned above

shabbat shalom and shanah tovah to all

Friday, September 23, 2005 2:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you think that homosexuality is such a sin based on, in my opinion, very thin reasoning in contrast with common sense and love which clearly says that it is nothing wrong, then why don't you just reopen Auschwitz and gas all the gay people?

How dare you say that just because someone falls in love with a member of the same sex they are so abnormal that not even God will love them?

Friday, September 23, 2005 3:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I came across this site purely by accident. I am not a Jew, and I know nothing whatsoever about the Jewish religion and way of life. But I do know that, for certain, it is not a choice. It is simply not something you can choose to be. You are what you are. As humans, we may change from time to time. This applies to every aspects of our life. For one example, when I was very young, I used to love eating fish. I’d used to eat the whole thing, the eyes, the tails, everything. I’d licked the bone clean. But all the sudden, I don’t even remember when, I stopped liking fish. During my adolescenthood into my young adulthood, I liked strictly meat, poultry, beef, and such. Now, I eat hardly any meat at all. Instead, I eat more salads, yogurt, and fresh fruits. I can’t say why my preference changed. It just happened on its own, without even consulting me, or asking me for approval. If it was a conscious choice, I’d sit down with a pencil and a piece of paper, write down all the pros and cons, and think them over with the seiousness of a philosopher, meditate upon all the aspects day and night, before coming to a desiscion. But that’s just not how it happened. Ever since I had memory, ever since I was a young kid, I’ve always been attracted to men. And as a child, you do not know what words like gay, homosexuals, sex, or desires mean. In fact, I did not know these words at all, needless to say understood the concept behind these terms. It was only until much later on in life, when I moved to the Sates, did I began to gain understanding of these words. But still, without having any solid knowledge of these words and ideas, I was attracted to boys my age and few years older at a very young age. I wanted Ken instead of Barbie. I would take Ken to bed at night, and not Barbie. And did I know what that implies? No, I certainly did not. And did anyone teach me to behave that way? No, most certainly not. I did not choose to be gay, I just am. I love to be held, to be caressed, and fondled by another man. The scent of a man’s body, the sight of his nose, his face, his torsol, the feel of his warm skin and hair all gives me such ecstatic feeling. When I make love to a man, it is for sure a very private experience that is soley enjoyed by me and the other guy, in our own private space, away from public’s view. So what is all this fuss over one’s own private business? Is it even anyone’s business?
And why deny oneself sexual love and pleasure, just because of other’s disapproval? My experience soley belongs to me. Just because you cannot understand and enjoy it, doesn’t mean that I can’t either. It just isn’t meant for you, but it is for me. It may be an abomination to you, but beauty to me. And by the way, homosexuals can have intimate spiritual experience with God as well. God does not deny you communion with Him because you are gay. He is not confined to your narrow view of what He is or should be. He is much more and beyond what man is capable of conceiving. We all see him in little different bits and pieces. Depends on where you are standing, the world can look very different. And I think that applies to God as well. Anyways, this is just my observation of my own life experience….

Saturday, September 24, 2005 2:41:00 AM  
Blogger phool said...

If Rabbi Stadtmauer agrees with Rav Tendler that one cannot claim to be orthodox and practice gay sex, he’s more honest than Steve Greenberg who wrestles.

I think he’s to be admired for stepping down from his position. He’s an honest man and a scholar. He’s choosing to freely satisfy his lust. He’s entitled to. Unfortunately, this is a terrible hillul Hashem, just before the Yamim Noraim.

But, I for one wish him well whatever he chooses, just as I wish every Jew well, gay, straight, ambi.

May he return to the fold without doubts and on whatever religious terms he chooses. It would be a shande if he chose a Conservative shul because of shame.

Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:02:00 AM  
Blogger Lisa said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:27:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

Duvduv, I was referring to the owner of this blog, who is all fire and brimstone when it comes to many flaws in the frum community, but completely embraces the rampant homophobia in that same community.

And I knew that Steve Greenberg would be raised in this instance. That man is no representative of frum gays and lesbians.

Alan Stadtmauer stepped down. That was good and right, because they would have fired him anyway once he came out, so he denied them that pleasure. And pleasure it would have been for them, full of pride and bigotry and ignorance.

That he left frumkeit... it's terrible. And I hope it's temporary. But anyone who says, as one of his students did, that he could deal with him being gay, but not his going off the derekh, has never known what it's like to be gay in the frum community.

It doesn't matter how much good you do, how much Torah you spread, how many Jews you help to stay frum, how useful you are to other frum Jews in certain areas... ultimately, you're a pariah. And it's not because the Torah prohibits mishkav zachor and nashim ha-mesollelot zu b'zu. It's because we live in a society where it's considered wrong to hate other people, but when it comes to gays and lesbians, they feel that they have permission to hate. Permission to maltreat fellow Jews. Permission to take all the worst urges they have that they generally control, and let loose on people who the rabbis will never dare come to the defense of.

Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:29:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Lisa,
You are dead wrong!
I just happen to have a different opinion about the "choices" Gay people make about their sexuality.
There is so much evidence to support my opinion.
I was never disrespectful to the Gay people, other than saying what many professionals have elucidated.
They , for the most part, feel that they must act out on their inclinations, regardless of the accepted construct of the male-female sexual structure that has existed and been maintained since the beggining of mankind.

Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:50:00 PM  
Blogger Reb Yudel said...

Perhaps the reason the Orthodox seem so bigoted is because most of them have been so trained at repressing their heterosexuality to operate in what is ultimately (as Daniel Boyarin has well pointed out) the homoerotic world of the Beit Midrash that they can't empathize with a non-repressed homosexual.

I've elaborated at more length over in the Bloghd comments, but briefly put, I see no reason to doubt that someone's sexual attraction toward men is as genuine, and unalterable, as my attraction toward women. To me, the notion of kissing someone with a beard and chest hair is rather unattractive. I thank God, however, that my wife does not feel the same way.

The real challenge for the Jewish community is to find a path that sanctifies, rather than simply represses, sexuality; that takes it seriously without obsessing over it.

By these criteria, both the various Orthodox communities as well as Ismar Schorch's Conservative Judaism fall radically short.

Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ismar isn't in control anymore. don't blame him.

when they validate homosexual marriage, what do we do?

feh.

Sunday, September 25, 2005 7:33:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How about some facts: whatever the cause of homosexual feelings, they are not a choice, any more than a heterosexual's attractions are. As some have noted, who would voluntarily choose being homosexual? None of my patients.
As for the response of Orthodox Rabbis, see a selection at the web site: http://www.YeshivaGays.com
The bottom line is that one specific act - anal sex - is a to'evah, and not all homosexuals engage in that act.

Rabbi Nathan Lopes Cardozo: "It is not possible for the Torah to come and ask a person to do something that he is not able to do. Theoretically speaking, it would be better for the homosexual to live a life of celibacy. I just would argue one thing -- it's completely impossible. It doesn't work. The human force of sexuality is so big that it can't be done."

Rabbi Shlomo Riskin: "Look, I really believe that more and more orthodox Rabbis who have come into contact with people who are gay as the situation has become more open. Like everything else, when you don't know you tend to demonize and almost dehumanize. When you know, you've met the individual, you've seen the sincerity of his prayer, you can no longer demonize and dehumanize. You have to just love and help, and that's what I think, in the final analysis, that's what Judaism is all about."

Naomi Mark, Orthodox Psychotherapist: "By giving kids the message that you either do it one way or that they have to leave forces us to lose many kids. Either they leave the community and become not frum, or we lose them, G-d forbid, to suicide, or they lose their neshoma -- they live a lie which distorts us internally long term. All of us are in the world to fix something. We don't know what it is. I mean we are just trying our best, struggling along, muddling through, trying to make sense out of it all. But in the end, we don't know. Whatever we see happening, in the end, G-d's writing the story for our lives. I think the more we get in touch with that state of not knowing the more humbled we are, the more we can listen, and the more we can surrender that there is more to all of this than we can ever possibly understand. The more hidden something is, the more holy it is. The more inaccessible something is, the more meaningful it can be."

Monday, September 26, 2005 5:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have been told by a friend of mine that is well learned in jewish texts that homosexuality is a sin worse than murder. If the torah and rabbis teach things like that how can anyone expect a homosexual person to remain religiously observant? There's clearly something wrong with that message. Another friend questioned if a gay person, who commits the worst sin imaginable should be going to shul or fasting on yom kippur. Why should he when he plans on engaging in the same vile behavior the next day? If a gay person is made to feel like he can't even fast or go to shul on yom kippur -- the most basic thing a jew can do. This is sad. Don't you think?

Monday, September 26, 2005 5:39:00 PM  
Anonymous GIVE ME A BREAK said...

Isn't it lucky for all of you who won the genetic lottery - and don't have to contend with a lifetime of abuse, contempt, and JUDGMENT - to be so privileged as to be born straight. You should spend more time improving yourselves for the various sins you undoubtedly commit on a daily basis, than maligning your fellow Jews who have enough to deal with on their own.

I'm not blind to the concerns of Halacha. But ask yourself - the way you might pore over a page of Gemara for hours and hours on end until you find the answer to some obscure question of ancient bibilical interest - why someone would chose to be a pariah to their community, be spurned by their family, and endure continuous emotional turmoil - for what? Because it's cool? Because everyone is doing it? For some other "reason" you have imagined? Give me a break.

Clearly, you're not a scientist. You're not God. You're not his judge, jury or executioner. And frankly, if He wanted your opinion, the one thing I do believe is that He'd ask for it.

Monday, September 26, 2005 6:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But, the same God demands of heterosexuals control over their desires, does She not? I'm not certain the community would treat a public person any better for having an illicit affair. Financial indiscretions frum Jews can relate to - and tolerate most.

Monday, September 26, 2005 9:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

give me a break - how well said!!

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Ridiculous said...

I don’t even know where to start. To the comment about “I have been told by a friend of mine that is well learned in jewish texts that homosexuality is a sin worse than murder.” If this were true, I would just as soon denounce judaism myself, right now, on the spot. One thing that people seem to forget sometimes when there head is buried in gemaras too long is – common sense! Give me a break people. The comments posted on this board and the response by Yeshiva of Flatbush leaders just go to show that Stadtmauer was 100% right in leaving and denouncing his religion. After the reaction I’ve seen – he’d be a fool not to. There has never been a time in my life where I have felt more ashamed to be associated with this community. As a people the Jews have been shunned, massacred, ridiculed and exiled by all the world. There are enough people out there who are unnaccepting of the Jews- must we be unnacepting of their own people as well? The spirit of the law/torah teaches us to have compassion, tolerance and understanding for others.

Instead of running to the torah and looking up rashis and counting how many times a word appears or whatever you do – why not just stop for a moment to use your (god-given) brain and think. Now- do you really believe that being gay is worse than killing someone? Honestly. Sickening.

As for the brilliant one on this board who posted that 99% of people are not gay and do not believe that people are born as such. You go out there and ask for statistical proof from others and yet you post these ridiculous numbers that come from the exaggerated figments of your diluded, close-minded imagination. You clearly come from a sheltered little microcosm that perpetuates your close-minded thoughts, and therefore no amount of “statistics” would ever save you from that. A lost cause.

If you want to uphold the spirit of the torah – and protect god’s ways and god’s world – go out and join those volunteering their time to build homes for the displaced citizens of New Orleans. Help out at a soup kitchen or something. Don’t pounce on a man or a people who are minding their own business, leading their private lives and disturbing noone.

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You are preaching to the choir.

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 4:21:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To quote some others on this board: “The Gay machla is civilization threatening... Why not gay bash? The torah calls it an abomination…. Where does this animal get the right to write about his personal preferences… People need to get a grip on themselves, and should become cognizant of the fact that they're flawed." -Thanks. I always wondered how the Holocaust happened. Now I understand.

Wow, I really wish that it was not allowed for some of you to go from yeshivah day school to Y.U. and straight to *studying* all day long, all the while living in a community where you are surrounded only by others just like yourselves. Perhaps then we could truly have a "modern" orthodoxy. Go interact with the outside world for god's sake!

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:07:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Centrist Orthodoxy, as they call it these days, is sympathetic to human needs.

As A S observed, women's issues are also relevant.

Gay bashers may feel machismo, but the One Above who created all knows more. All of life is a test and there is only one true Judge. A S knows this to be true.

The so-called "modern" world isn't the arbiter of human destiny.

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 7:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Deviant sexual behavior is a crime against humanity, it has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 8:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

a crime against humanity? Why? Because deviance doesn't result in reproduction?

Our Torah neither condones, nor encourages many forms of deviance, including cross-dressing. It's not my thing, but if a man wears a skirt, is this a crime against humanity?

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, but it is definitely weird behavior in our culture.
You are confusing the issues.
People like yourself are trying to blur the lines that society has constructed for the better of humankind.
This may be a stretch today, but when does bestiality kick in as acceptable behavior?
If society takes down the walls that exist for our benefit, we are doomed to see all kinds of conduct in the years to come.
Can you imagine your great grandfather seeing two guys holding hands walking down the street?
Don't you understand how conditioned and desensitized the world has become?

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 2:28:00 AM  
Anonymous Editor said...

I'm sure the rabbi will be welcomed at Kol Nidrei in the Chabad shul in Bangkok, they accept all - gay straight orthodox unorthodox.

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:50:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What exactly is the tragedy here? Is it that this guy is gay? To me, the fact that it is worthy of so much discussion in this day and age is the real tragedy. Who cares?????

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:43:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

The tragedy is that this type of sexual behavior is soon going to be considered mainstream; a legitimate lifestyle option.

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 2:48:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

UOJ
what's the research and "evidence" you keep claiming but never put forward?

Do i need to repeat the actual studies and facts about the actual evidence?

You asked for them and were provided with them by me and others and then you ignored and were silent regarding the large number of studies and research . . .

you rather hold on to your own gut feelings and lamely claim there's support for your essentially ignorant (not to mention, insensitive) views and ideas

who's the "they" you refer to?
I know many frum gay/lesbian people who struggle in spite of what i consider a futile effort to be frum and keep their integrity

the saddest of them (in my view) are those who don't act on their "inclinations" and keep going back to the dry well of frumkeit where there is no water to be had for their wanting to cleave to Hashem - they cannot marry and you would have them just shut up and take their situation like any physically or mentally incapacitated person

shame on you for not bothering to actually inform yourself and nonetheless feel no inhibition to spout you damaging silly ideas

i know frum gays who don't engage in mishkav zachor just because they still have emunah that that's what Hashem wants from them - are they the ones you're referring to?

don't you think you owe an apology to all those who you've offended and don't you have a duty to actually consult the voluminous literature on the subject before you keep on uttering your essentially (even if you don't conciously intend it to be)mean-spirited and ignorant views?

k'tivah v'chatimah tovah,
duvduv

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:00:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

UOJ
what's the research and "evidence" you keep claiming but never put forward?

Do i need to repeat the actual studies and facts about the actual evidence?

You asked for them and were provided with them by me and others and then you ignored and were silent regarding the large number of studies and research . . .

you rather hold on to your own gut feelings and lamely claim there's support for your essentially ignorant (not to mention, insensitive) views and ideas

who's the "they" you refer to?
I know many frum gay/lesbian people who struggle in spite of what i consider a futile effort to be frum and keep their integrity

the saddest of them (in my view) are those who don't act on their "inclinations" and keep going back to the dry well of frumkeit where there is no water to be had for their wanting to cleave to Hashem - they cannot marry and you would have them just shut up and take their situation like any physically or mentally incapacitated person

shame on you for not bothering to actually inform yourself and nonetheless feel no inhibition to spout you damaging silly ideas

i know frum gays who don't engage in mishkav zachor just because they still have emunah that that's what Hashem wants from them - are they the ones you're referring to?

don't you think you owe an apology to all those who you've offended and don't you have a duty to actually consult the voluminous literature on the subject before you keep on uttering your essentially (even if you don't conciously intend it to be)mean-spirited and ignorant views?

k'tivah v'chatimah tovah,
duvduv

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:00:00 PM  
Blogger David Kelsey said...

UOJ,

The NYTimes, who has a gay publisher, had an article a few years ago concseding that indeed, the 10% figure was highly inflated, and was closer to 1%.

10% is such a bogus statistic.

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRI_AIM_Talk.html

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>The tragedy is that this type of sexual behavior is soon going to be considered mainstream; a legitimate lifestyle option.

Option? This brings us back to choice. There is no choice in this matter - it comes from Above.

You didn't choose to be heterosexual - it came from Above.

You didn't choose to have brown or blue eyes - it came from Above.

Hashem is in charge here despite what you think the Torah says.

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:28:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

B'chirah-Free will , my friend.
We all have taivus we must work on.
Yes, there are people that are born with more hormones of the opposite sex than others.
Can you imagine a time when a felon's claim of "dui" can be blamed on the alcoholic genes in his family?
How about a Mafia kin blaming his behavior on his genetic dispositions?
Where does it end?
President LBJ loved to watch bestiality films, can his grandkid claim it's in the family therefore it's not able to be controlled?

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, my sweet brother, I understand your reasoning about taivas but, when you start studying our tradition of mysticism, you'll learn there's no such thing as free will.

We are like robots programmed by God to act out our egotistical desires (whether that is being a pork-eating secular Israeli or one who is shomer shabbat, shomrei mitzvot) until we develop a masach for those desires. Even then, only God will decide which desires are appropriate for each individual.

On a human level, the issues you mention are important to us but they're very corporeal. However, to God, no matter how much this may offend our egos, the matter of bestiality, mafia-killers, alcoholics, or kind, good-hearted people, does not matter--even something as horrific as Auschwitz does not matter to God. I'm not saying that people should do this, just that we need to recognize the Source of all of this.

To you and me, of course, it causes us pain simply because we're human. Unfortunately, even our arguing over inability to accept spiritual reality is cyclical and gets us nowhere because there is only one God and He is One.

--Eyal

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:09:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

I guess it's now clear to anyone reading this blog-stream that UOJ is talking out of his own prejudice and ignorance and has no real concern or interest in the facts

many pointed questions posed to you, UOJ, you ignore
but still you rant on

oy!

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't agree with the vast majority of what UOJ's saying but I like that he's not ranting on like Jerusalem Jew, who spouts only venom and hatred and would probably string us up if given the chance.

As a gay person, I also give credit to UOJ for allowing a diversity of opinion on his website and deleting only the posting containing vulgarities.

But, yes, I still don't agree...

--Eyal

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:29:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

DuvDuv,
Give me straightforward questions, one by one, I will answer all of them!

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:56:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Eyal, You are wrong.
Without free will, no one can be responsible for their actions.
Programmed robots, are free of sin.

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Apropos to UOJ, the American electorate favors liberalism when it comes to granting health care benefits and protections against discrimination to gays, but I don't believe the straight world is ready to accept queers as normal. They feel sorry for the underdog.

Homophobes, anyone who feels severely threatened by homosexuality, has a problem. Otherwise, it's not your problem unless your kids are molested or you yourself are gay. That's a problem nobody outside can solve other than to be malbush shechorim.

Frum and traditional communities will never accept gays but some will feel sympathetic. I don't think that's so bad. Why not?

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:59:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

David,
I remember reading that.
1% homosexuals= OK behavior.
45% of population of blacks have committed crimes, should we legitimze their behavior due to their hard -luck nonsense?

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 6:08:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

UOJ
it seems a bit disingenuous on your part (since you require repeating again rather than fairly responding to what was already posed to you) but for the sake of others reading this,

Question #1) Others and I above, have named and directed you to numerous studies and research and websites regarding the issue of choice and nature of homosexuality. You have repeatedly stated that it's a choice and that "There is so much evidence to support my opinion." (comment on your blog made at 1:50 pm).
What is the evidence you are referring to?

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 6:29:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

DuvDuv,
For starters, please look at Hirsh Weinreb's statement, that he suggests treatment for most Gays to help them "reorient" themselves.

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 6:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. Weinreb is a very smart guy, highly professional and experienced. He's also the spokesman for the OU. What do you expect him to say, OUJ, creating an alternative lifestyle is cool?

The people who say they are gay claim they cannot help their attraction to others of the same sex. Let's imagine they don't practice sex but feel interiorly gay, so what if they favor pink curtains etc.

DSM IV does not classify homosexuality as a mental illness and asserts masturbation is normal. Rabbi Weinreb might suggest yeshiva bachurim "reorient" themselves and seek treatment for a problem which may also exist in the Jewish community in larger numbers than one percent. No?

Tefillat Zakah, here we come.

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 7:45:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Weinreb could have opted out of making any statement.
I agree there are guys with feminine traits, we all know some of them.
They can buy all the pink curtains they want, we are discussing their behavior not their tastes.
We all are tested in various ways daily, we have choices and we are responsible for the choices we make.

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You are right, oh famous one. Who can disagree?

But, to be honest, I have not been given the tendency to desire a relationship with a sheep. Does this give me the right to judge those who do? The Master of the Universe judges, fairly, righteously, according to His rules. Mishkav zakhor is a no-no on par with eishet ish. Yet, we are hypocritical to vent rage against the "child molesters" while treating adulterers with kid gloves.

We forgive what we are comfortable with and can condone (like masturbation) - the heter d'Rav Hunah (na'asit alav k'heter).

You may be right that a country which considers any form of gay marriage legitimate is on the downslide. Orthodoxy will never condone the impossible, but on a human level, you have to sympathize (at least I do) with those whose yetser hara is one way and unrelenting.

Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:44:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I went to both high school and college with Rabbi Stadtmauer and was a friend of his. He was not born gay. His interest in girls at high school could not have been more genuine. The earliest he may have changed was in college, though I suspect he changed much later.

I've heard that when a single man isn't married by his early 30's, he runs the risk of becoming gay. I don't know if this is true, but it seems to be what happened here.

I don't think he should be faulted for becoming gay. But I do think he should be faulted for the way he left his school. A responsible person in the position he had (Rabbi and school principal) who feels gay tendencies should leave the school long before he decides that he's gay. That way, if he decides he's gay, his students will by then have had time to mature, and will have had time to forget about him. But he was thinking only of himself. Doing what he did was a betrayal of trust towards the parents and school body that appointed him, and shows self-centeredness. I would say to him, "If you want to be gay, that's fine with me. But when did your gay feelings start? Surely they didn't come suddenly. Why didn't you leave the school when you first felt them? Don't you realise that you've caused harm to the student body, and have caused anguish to the school (and parent body) that entrusted you with such an important position? By appointing you as Principal we trusted you that you wouldn't do something like that to us."

Thursday, September 29, 2005 5:22:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Excellent thoughts from the above poster.
I am not familiar with that point of view regarding an unmarried person....., however i definitely agree that he had an obligation to resign immediately upon discovering his so called attraction to males.

Thursday, September 29, 2005 8:44:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Eyal, You are wrong.
Without free will, no one can be responsible for their actions.
Programmed robots, are free of sin."

--No papi, that was exactly my point. There is no such thing as sin on our level. It's a spiritual reality that you have not yet been taught.

--Eyal

Thursday, September 29, 2005 9:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No sin on your spiritual level? What world are you living in?

As to AS, I don't know him at all and I'm no friend of child molesters, but he wasn't one at y of f and simply quit. That was his right. He was hired to do a job and did it. Then, he stopped. He shouldn't have gone into Jewish education in the first place once he thought something lewd, gay or straight? Any hirhur aveirah, any stray thought, and UOJ, with his trainloads and planes, and the legions of trucks filled with plaques, theses, and semichas, is mitstaref them all l'ma'aseh. Nice. I wonder if the creator of this blog ever had a bad thought or a bad word about anyone. If so, he should disqualify yourself and stop blogging. Come on? Who's perfect here? We are all works in progress.

If the numbers of people who exhibit homosexual tendencies are few, if you believe the cause is societal, I'm no expert. I don't know, but I highly doubt his waiting to get married caused him to choose gay. Straight guys are turned on by women, period. Gays in the closet fake interest to fit in. That he did so at Rz and Yu is no surprise. Gay interests are not welcomed or rewarded in the Orthodox world. Shidduchim are. If we're lucky, yeshiva bochurim and seminary girls find someone of UOJ's stature - and marry a credit card or a truck.

He did step down and waited a year. How much notice did he need give? You are arguing he should have never entered the field. He left it. What more do you want?

I'm upset that he's provided a role model for other Orthodox gays to come out which is bad for everyone. The Torah forbids this, but other than his choosing to leave a life of Torah in the closet for days on the beach, I do not believe he chose to be gay.

His theological doubts are of more concern to me. How can someone with semikhah (unless it's of the caliber, depth and moetses gedolei hatorah yoreh yoreh, yadin yadin, yadin yadin level of UOJ) become acher?

Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:54:00 AM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Good one!
I, for one would not teach hilchos Lason Hara, even though I feel I have every single right in the world, to do what I do via my blog.

In matter of fact I believe it's a great mitzvah to try to expose and rid the fake bastards, thieves from our schools and organizations.

In my private life, in case you are interested, I NEVER SPEAK LASHON HARA!!!!
When we have guests at our home, I do not permit "people" conversations.
A person who has tendencies of kleptomania should not work in a bank.
A person who is in violation of Halacha b'mazid, should not be a rebbe, teacher or principal of a school, where his actions will leave indelible harm on the souls of his students.

Thursday, September 29, 2005 11:33:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You who never speak lashon hara, just promote it, are a true tsaddik.

My children will buy your Torah cards.

You happen to be right about bad role models, but despite your efforts, Dudley DoRight, everyone answers to the Ribbono shel Olam.

In the words of the Talmud, rolling off your beard, "l'petah hatat rovets."

Thursday, September 29, 2005 11:45:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a guy who struggles with SSA (Same sex attraction). Believe me, it is no easy lifestyle. I have been in therapy for 2-3 years now. I have grown a lot and I am stronger than I have ever been. My attraction to men is a lot less and my attraction to women has grown tremendously. I have been in a therapy called reperative therapy- to help one change his sexual orientation. It is long and difficult but for me it has been well worth it. I certainly wouldnt criticise someone who decided not to go through the therapy. It is the most difficult challenge I have ever faced, but as I mentioned earlier, well worth it. For those of you who are interested see www.jonahweb.org or www.peoplecanchange.com. There are many books that have been written about the topic. Change is an option. Unfortunately many dont know that because of gay politics and the gay agenda. It worked for me and for many others that I have met through the process. Again, whether one decides to actually go through with it is his own decision, but at least he should know it is an option.

Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would not knock anyone who chooses to marry and have children to fulfill the mitsvot Hashem.

For Ortho gays, the old fashioned approach used to work: celibacy.

Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:43:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

UOJ

Is this like a cat and mouse game?

After ignoring the many questions posed to you, you then said that you would answer them if i posed them to you one at a time

so i did

The question is where is your evidence - I don't know who or what hirsh weinreb is or said and if you have evidence (as you so stated that "there is much evidence"), please priint it or at least, exactly where this alleged "evidence" is

(hint: As I stated above, there is no such evidence)

my question #1 still awaits your promised answer

Friday, September 30, 2005 3:28:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

Anonymous (no wonder)

you've "heard that" people become gay if they're not married by 30??!!

what planet are you living on?

as if you could possibly know what Allen was feeling and thinking (and hoping and groping with) when you in your all knowing way can testify that his feelings were "genuine"

does anybody else besides me realize how ignorant that sounds and is

all the gay men i know who came from frum backgrounds hoped and prayed (and often were advised by ignorant rabbeim) that they should just try to be with women and maybe their homosexual feelings will go away

don't you get that you are clueless, like UOJ, and like UOJ, you should not be spouting out about things which you know so little?!

OY!

Friday, September 30, 2005 3:40:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

the very idea that you think you can discern what he was feeling and when he was feeling it is so preposterous

how about asking him?
or are you afraid of getting the wrong answer?

i guess that that might be a good reason (i.e., not liking the answer you might get) for "suspecting" and speculating and then proceeding as if there's a shred of a reason to think your speculations have any validity

Friday, September 30, 2005 3:45:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

"A person who has tendencies of kleptomania should not work in a bank.
A person who is in violation of Halacha b'mazid, should not be a rebbe, teacher or principal of a school, where his actions will leave indelible harm on the souls of his students."

(11:33 AM)

It sounds like you are saying that AS was in violation oh Halacha b'mazid while he was principal at Flatbush - do you have any evidence for THIS?

double OY!

Friday, September 30, 2005 3:56:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

To The Anonymous reparative therapy patient

my heart goes out to you - i know many people who've tried reparative therapy and as far as i can tell, it mostly reinforces in the patient a negative self image in that they are reinforced to believe the same negative message that society and UOJ and so many others keep delivering, which is that their inner selves are fahkrumpt (defective) and they need to change

so desperate are they to change, they can be convinced that they have changed but the test is not whether they "think" their attraction to men is less and to women more (which already suggests that they aren't gay but rather, bisexual). Rather, the true scientific test would be to use a peter-meter i.e., a physiological/psychological test of their sexual response to male and female stimulii. These technologies have been around for many years and they measure, among other things, heart rate, skin conductivity, penile tumescence. If one started out with a repulsion to women and an attraction to men (as measured scientifically) and then, after therapy, ended up with a repulsion to men and an attraction to women (or even, just an equal attraction to women and not a repulsion to men), there would be good reason to put faith in such a therapy for the many people who yearn to feel differently then they do.

Unfortunately, despite the myriad of different (and tragically, often damaging)therapies that have been tried for that very purpose, none have ever been shown to have any efficacy.

If you, Anonymous Rep. Therap. Patient, have been able to develop an attraction to women and now can have a satisfying sex life (for the both of you) with a woman, then I wish you all the best and say, Kohl Ha'Kahvode.

Because I know and have known so many who have tried so hard for so long to be able to get an erection with a woman (not even to say, have a fully and mutually satisfying sex life) and have been unable to do so and because there still remains no evidence (despite what UOJ saw on Oprah)that a gay man can be therapied into a straight man (as there is also no evidence that a straight man can be changed into a gay man), i can only imagine that you either: 1)were not gay to begin with but rather bisexual; or 2)that you think you are less attracted to men and more attracted to women because you so badly want to be, but, in fact are not; or 3)having made such a great and serious and arduous and long-term investment, you need to believe that it wasn't all for naught(and you need/want to affirm your choice as well as please your therapist and all those who have encouraged you that you can do it).

I would greatly like to talk with you as I am one of those who also spent much time and $ and therapy trying to change my sexual orientation . . . would you consider calling me up? writing to me by email? lemme know -
my email is NYCatNYC@aol.com.

Shabbat Shalom and Shanah Tovah to all.

Friday, September 30, 2005 4:29:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

In the words of the Talmud, rolling off your beard, "l'petah hatat rovets."


what does that mean?

to the opening of sin he runs after?

Friday, September 30, 2005 4:33:00 PM  
Anonymous Mechanech said...

I would just like to offer a perspective that is simple yet suprisingly absent from any debate on homosexuality. When a person says he must be “true to himself” what does this mean? What part of him is “himself?” Is it his urges? Is it his intellect? Emotions? We all understand that our physical desires are not who we are, but our emotions and intellect can be more confusing. Chazal say that Shlomo Hamelech’s intellect “fooled” him into transgresing two aveiros (lo yarbeh lo nashim, susim) which means that intellect too can be a yetzer hara. Emotions cannot be considered “ourselves” because it too rooted in the physical. What is then “ourselves?” It is our decisions. The power of choosing, Bechira Chafshis. The final decision to act after receiving all the feedback from these three sources (intellect, emotion & physical urges) is who we really are (a.k.a. the Neshama). I ask you then, why do people confuse “being true to oneself” with being true to their emotions, physical urges or their intellect? If a person chooses to be a homosexual it is not because he is being “true to himself” and “authentic.” Actually he is letting “himself,” the decision maker within, be led astray by his (pick one) emotion, physical urges, or intellect. Actually, he is not being true to himself at all.

Sunday, October 02, 2005 12:42:00 AM  
Blogger duvduv said...

"If a person chooses to be a homosexual it is not because he is being “true to himself” and “authentic.” Actually he is letting “himself,” the decision maker within, be led astray by his (pick one) emotion, physical urges, or intellect. Actually, he is not being true to himself at all."

MECHANECH - had you read the above stream, you would have read that not only is your "insight" not "surprisingly absent" from the discussion about homosexuality, but rather it's your insight of when "a person chooses to be homosexual" that is rather surprisingly uninformed -

apparently, the vast majority of frum gays (if not all of them)are under the impression that they didn't at all choose to have homosexual feelings but rather these unwanted feelings are deep within them

UOJ -
I'm hoping you will have time before Rosh Hashanah to keep your promise to answer the questions posed to you - if not, k'teevah v'chateemah tovah and hopefully, after yom tov, you will be able to see the error of your thinking :-)

. . . . and at least acknowledge such

or

maybe, you do have some answers

Sunday, October 02, 2005 5:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

uoj has all the answers.

Sunday, October 02, 2005 7:35:00 PM  
Blogger Un-Orthodox Jew said...

DuvDuv,
I thought I did!
Shana Tova!

Sunday, October 02, 2005 9:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know it's the time of the year where we pray for the geulah "the ultimate recemption". Our rabbis teach us that the reason why the temple was destroyed was because of hate and insensitivity of one jew to another. The disunity that things like this create are detrimental to us a nation and are extremly beneficial to our enemies and is exactly why we are still here in Galut.
I, a student of the yeshiva of Flatbush saw and heard of Alan stadtmauer's compassion and dedication towards the many students he influenced. I was told this by his coworkers (my teachers), and his students as soon as the news broke.
He was an impeccable model of modern orthodoxy and does not deserve to be treated like this.
His influence on hundreds if not thousands of students of zionistic, jewish, and honest values can never be taken away.
He always beleived in honesty, and would never lie to the students about anything, and was not going to lie to himself. And for that he certainly should not be condemned.
You people are discracing the name of someone who has chosen to be honest with himself as well as with his students. He has made his own choice which is best for him at this time for himself. We can not begin to estimate the amount of trouble he has had with this issue adn should respect him for having the guts to come out with it publicly.

Sunday, October 02, 2005 11:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The troubles he has are beyond dispute; the value of sharing those doubts, debatable.

AS is an honest scholar. If he is a mumar le-davar echad, a mumar le-teavon, he is human. I think having students like you must be a source of consolation to him.

Monday, October 03, 2005 12:59:00 AM  
Blogger duvduv said...

Un-Orthodox Jew said...
"DuvDuv,
I thought I did!
Shana Tova!"

UOJ - you again "thought" wrong

you promised to answer each question posed to you, question by question - it's a week since i posed you the first question about where's any of your "much evidence" that you claimed supports your (what i consider, unsupportable) ideas about homosexuality and choice, etc.

i'm still waiting for a reply which needs to produce and site your claimed evidence and not mention some unattached name (like, Oprah or weinreb - who's he, where's he, where's his "plenty of research?")

otherwise, you need to concede that you were very mistaken and need to apologize to those many you have offended and denigrated

shanh tovah to you and all

Monday, October 03, 2005 1:05:00 PM  
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Saturday, October 08, 2005 6:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just to correct the earlier "anonymous" who vouched for Rabbi Stadtmauer's interest in girls during high school: Allow me to vouch for his complete disinterest in girls during college.

Saturday, October 08, 2005 11:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

whose business is it anyway, mr. voucher?

Sunday, October 09, 2005 12:02:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

a good question.

If outing others is considered damaging, is outing oneself the "gutsy" honest right thing to do?

Let's out uoj.

Monday, October 10, 2005 12:12:00 PM  
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Anonymous Anonymous said...

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Thursday, October 20, 2005 9:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm pretty sure Alan Stadtmauer was a counselor in Camp Morasha in the early 80's. Can anybody corroborate that?

Friday, October 21, 2005 10:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

who cares?

Friday, October 21, 2005 3:37:00 PM  
Blogger duvduv said...

Un-Orthodox Jew said...
DuvDuv,
Give me straightforward questions, one by one, I will answer all of them!

5:56 PM


Shame on you, UOJ, for not keeping your promise and not apologizing for your mean-spirited and unsubstantiated and ignorant statements and claims -

i did everything you asked for and you still have not provided a single piece of evidence/research regarding your many ridiculous claims

this blog has just abour run out of steam and your way overdue apology will likely not reach the many you have maligned and offended

i don't know what you can do to make proper amends but it is probably pretty clear to everyone who has read this blog-stream that you don't care about the truth and have no inhibitions to speak falsehoods and nonsense

i mistakenly assumed you to be intellectually honest but just ill-informed

you've now shown yourself to be quite a fraud and can find companionship with the another great fraud by the name of socarides

again, SHAME ON YOU UOJ

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 3:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I knew a sibling of Mr Stadtmauer and if she is any indication, the family is very left wing MO to the point that they just maintain Orthodox affiliation for social reasons. His sibling was frum in name only, and that barely so. He may have turned to the rabbinate to mask his homosexuality; the Stadtmauers are a family of attorneys and businessmen.

Sunday, October 30, 2005 11:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"he may have turned to the rabbinate to mask his homosexuality?"

What sort of idiot statement is that?

Are all rabbis gay? This is why he didn't become an attorney or a businessman?

Your logic is non-existent. Sorry.

Monday, October 31, 2005 9:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. former rabbi,lo zachur latov.you have made fun and a caricature of all the educational institute of yeshiva of flatbush.

As a former teacher and a heteresexual mother of 2 daughters,i feel that you,the former rabbi,(interestingly,where did u get smicha?),,should have never been employed as a principal.didnt the administration see how "queer" that a man should be single and be a principal? and for your protection,either you should use some protection,you know in bankok ,they dont study"KI tazria-metzora",otherwise you will be a candidate of aids or be a eunach!and no,none of the rabbis i know are homosexuals.sorry,kids.

Tuesday, November 01, 2005 1:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

kids.
i feel bad for you,having such a principal,instead of having a principal who was supposed to be a beacon of morality,you got a real "SDOMNIK"!!!!! and he made sure to blacken the reputation of your school,for years to come.there is no justification for his sdomnik ways,be happy,he is away somewhere in the dark alleys of bankok,and pray,he shouldnt come in a coffin!be strong! kids!hashem had created a world of straights,and what he did,is a pure,KARET!DONT ENVY HIM!

Tuesday, November 01, 2005 1:18:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what an inspirational message from a caring mom. Nothing queer here.

The reputation of the y o f was hardly sterling before this incident. I don't think the rabbi's personal problems will make much of a difference.

Can you blame him for not wanting to marry mom?

Tuesday, November 01, 2005 10:13:00 PM  
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Blogger ron said...

There's something I just don't understand here.

OK, so lets say only 1% of the population has this desire (I actually read that it is more along the lines of 3%, but it doesn't matter) Nevertheless, they still have the desire. It is not going away. It is just as strong and relentless regardless of the numbers.

Next up. OK, so someone is simply not attracted to the opposite sex. Nevertheless, the law is very clear with regards to male homosexual sex - it is not to be done.

Whatever your desires, the rules for behavior are the same. The law does not say "if you do not have the desire to have sex with a man but you do it anyway ..." Nor does it say "... but if you have an overwhelming desire for it we'll cut you slack and give you permission."

And yes, this sin is something in the category of Yehareg V'al Y'aavor. That is - "submit to death rather than transgress".

Note the word "submit" and not "suicide". Suicide is also a form of murder, it is also most certainly a far worse form than simply killing someone in a fit of passion. If you fail in doing a test, you do not have permission to kill yourself. You do not even have permission to kill yourself beforehand. You are obligated to be a man, show a little humility, get over yourself, admit that you are flawed and try better.

This is also true for adultry, and incidentally, it is true with regards to causing another Jew humiliation. If anything, humiliation is an even greater sin than homosexuality.

The last time I checked I didn't notice hordes of people thinking about suicide because they had just humiliated or publicly degraded someone.

We are also forgetting what the Gemmara says about the topic of "desire" in previous generations.

I'm reffering to the Midrash where the Sanhedrin destroyed the Tayvah for idolatry and then "blinded" the Tayvah for sexual desire. What that means is that these desires did not only exist in those days but that it was far more overwhelming even than what the most die-hard homosexual is dealing with today. We know of the story of the sage who was visited by King Menashe in a dream, who told him that if he had lived in the same time as Menashe, then he would be running to commit idolatry, such was the terrifying nature of this desire.

Nevertheless, the law was explicit with regards to this behavior then just as now. This isn't a pick and choose situation. I have sympathy for someone who is overwhelemed with this, and simply cannot control himself. I honestly do. I believe in my heart that someone who tries and fails, and tries and fails, will certainly be granted mercy in the world to come, precisely because of his efforts here, provided he really was sincere but CONTINUES TRYING.

I have never seen or heard of anything in our literature to contradict that notion, and I am sure that all of those religious Jews who are reading this post can think of at least one place which confirms what I have proposed.

However, someone who simply says "well this is what I want, therefore I'm going to do it." Look, no offense, but if this religion is indeed revelation from G-d then you are going to have to answer for it.

Just like ==> I <== am going to have to answer for whatever sins I have commited and did not control. I am under no illusions as to what I do wrong in my daily life, I know very well that I have a lot of explaining to do.

Nevertheless, while you aren't expected to succeed, you don't get any points for throwing in the towel.

And to be completely blunt, I have a lot more respect for a man who tries and fails to control this aspect of his personality than someone who doesn't try to control, lets say, Loshon Hara. Which incidentally is far worse than homosexuality in nearly every respect.

On the other hand, please don't expect me to cheer for someone because he decides that this religion just isn't convenient for him. I'm glad he was honest, it is certainly a step up for him to be upfront.

But I think his problems were a little more extensive than just having a desire for men. I do not know him, but I am basing that on the nature of the letter which he wrote. It struck me that he was less concerned with the objective truth as he was with the practical implications of his life.

That is too bad for him, but he does not get a "get of jail free" card just because he cannot control himself. If he can get one, I'd appreciate it if he can show me where I can find one for myself. Because believe me, I need it. And I suspect a lot of other people would appreciate the same.

Guess what, homosexuality isn't the only test a human being has in this life. There are tests JUST AS TOUGH, JUST AS RELENTLESS as this one. If you think that only gay men and women have to experience loneliness, or suffering because they have to abide by the rules G-d has set down, than you are a fool. What's more, you are cold and unfeeling as to the suffering of your brethren.

You have a job to do in this life. This life, isn't, contrary to popular belief, forever. It's over quite fast believe it or not. And while you are here you have to do your best. That's it.

As far as homosexuality being mainstream and impacting judaism. With respect UOJ, I want you to take a look at some of the other cultures and barbarians our people have been forced by necessity to live among. This includes, but is not limited to, the ancient Greeks with their abominable "man-boy love", the Egyptians who practiced and reveled nearly every form of deviancy invented, as well as the Caananites who were addicted to blood and murder in their ritual slayings.

We survived those cultures, we'll survive and persevere through this one as well.

-ron

Thursday, November 10, 2005 4:38:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are tests JUST AS TOUGH, JUST AS RELENTLESS as this one.

listening to ron blog on.

twit

Friday, November 11, 2005 12:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

TO THE FORMER FLATBUSH STUDENT WHO IS PROUD OF HIS HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES AND IS SO HATEFUL OF THE YESHIVA,
MIGHT BE YOU ARE A LET US SAY A FAMOUS DESIGER OR,A FORMER "RABBI"-WHICH I WOULD BRING OUT TO LIGHT THE ANACHRONYM OF THE TITLE,RA-BEENEI ISRAEL..
WITH A RABBI LIKE THIS WHO NEEDS HIM?AND YOU,POOR GAY GUY,YOU WILL ALWAYS BE CONSIDERED AN OUTCAST,EVEN IF MOMMY LOVES YOU,A YIDDISHE NACHAS YOU WONT BRING HER,SUCH AS EINIKLACH.YOU MISSED IT,FEIGALE.

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 12:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anachronym - a new word, a chiddush from one of the achronym?

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 9:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

UOJ, you said in one post, "I have a different and well researched opinion, even if you do not agree with me."

Here's a lesson from Weizzman Institue of Science.

http://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp?HMS1&search=HMS1&suff=txt

And, how from the National Center of Biotechnology Information:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8332896&query_hl=1


"There are well known interviews with people who have experimented with the Gay lifestyle, and agree with me."

In science - that's called false consensus. The idea that a specific instance is a representative sample.

Further evidence of false consensus: "I am merely stating an opinion that is accepted by 99% of the world's population."

That's fine. You can listen to them. I'm a geneticist and seemingly, in the "1%" who disagrees with.

Tuesday, December 20, 2005 7:34:00 AM  
Blogger duvduv said...

duvduv said...
UOJ
it seems a bit disingenuous on your part (since you require repeating again rather than fairly responding to what was already posed to you) but for the sake of others reading this,

Question #1) Others and I above, have named and directed you to numerous studies and research and websites regarding the issue of choice and nature of homosexuality. You have repeatedly stated that it's a choice and that "There is so much evidence to support my opinion." (comment on your blog made at 1:50 pm).
What is the evidence you are referring to?

6:29 PM
Un-Orthodox Jew said...
DuvDuv,
For starters, please look at Hirsh Weinreb's statement, that he suggests treatment for most Gays to help them "reorient" themselves.

That's not evidence - that's just another charlatan claiming he can do what no study/clinical research/ etc. has ever been able to show - i.e., that sexual orientation can be changed

for the hundredth time - you are being asked to come up with your so-called "evidence" or apologize and shut up about the things you show that you have no knowledge about but just apparently strong homophobic feelings regarding the many gay/lesbians who want to (inexplicably, from my vantage point)stay in the frum community

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:44:00 AM  
Blogger duvduv said...

Anonymous said...
Dear Mr. former rabbi,lo zachur latov.you have made fun and a caricature of all the educational institute of yeshiva of flatbush.

As a former teacher and a heteresexual mother of 2 daughters,i feel that you,the former rabbi,(interestingly,where did u get smicha?),,should have never been employed as a principal.didnt the administration see how "queer" that a man should be single and be a principal? and for your protection,either you should use some protection,you know in bankok ,they dont study"KI tazria-metzora",otherwise you will be a candidate of aids or be a eunach!and no,none of the rabbis i know are homosexuals.sorry,kids.

1:09 PM
YOUR venom is shocking and like UOJ, just plainly misinformed - no wonder so many thoughtful moral orthodox people are leaving the fold

if i had a mother like you (or even a teacher) i might have left even sooner than i did

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:51:00 AM  
Blogger duvduv said...

Anonymous said

I don't think he should be faulted for becoming gay. But I do think he should be faulted for the way he left his school. A responsible person in the position he had (Rabbi and school principal) who feels gay tendencies should leave the school long before he decides that he's gay. That way, if he decides he's gay, his students will by then have had time to mature, and will have had time to forget about him. But he was thinking only of himself. Doing what he did was a betrayal of trust towards the parents and school body that appointed him, and shows self-centeredness. I would say to him, "If you want to be gay, that's fine with me. But when did your gay feelings start? Surely they didn't come suddenly. Why didn't you leave the school when you first felt them? Don't you realise that you've caused harm to the student body, and have caused anguish to the school (and parent body) that entrusted you with such an important position? By appointing you as Principal we trusted you that you wouldn't do something like that to us."

5:22 AM
I still can't believe how ignorant so many on this stream are

don't you know that the vast majority of gay people have a vague inkling of their feelings since pre-puberty but hope and try and pray for those feelings to go away or at least stop being dominant

how idiotic of you to suggest allam s. should have left as soon as he was "clear" (whatever that means) taht he was gay - i'm quite sure he's done much good in his position and that you're in no position (like that stupid former teacher/mother above)to judge what he should have done and what he did and didn't feel/do

get yourselves some humility ("aaneevoot)and start looking at your own flawed and defective characters

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:58:00 AM  
Blogger duvduv said...

10:54 AM
Un-Orthodox Jew said...
"Good one!
I, for one would not teach hilchos Lason Hara, even though I feel I have every single right in the world, to do what I do via my blog.

In matter of fact I believe it's a great mitzvah to try to expose and rid the fake bastards, thieves from our schools and organizations.

In my private life, in case you are interested, I NEVER SPEAK LASHON HARA!!!!"
--------------------

oh yeah - that's real believable - the very word "never" belies your very strong disposition to engage in charater assasination (in the most intellectually dishonest manner)and it's just too incredible to believe you only succumb to that taiveh on your blog but not in your real life

oy

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:06:00 AM  
Blogger duvduv said...

12:05 PM
Anonymous said...
"TO THE FORMER FLATBUSH STUDENT WHO IS PROUD OF HIS HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES AND IS SO HATEFUL OF THE YESHIVA,
MIGHT BE YOU ARE A LET US SAY A FAMOUS DESIGER OR,A FORMER "RABBI"-WHICH I WOULD BRING OUT TO LIGHT THE ANACHRONYM OF THE TITLE,RA-BEENEI ISRAEL..
WITH A RABBI LIKE THIS WHO NEEDS HIM?AND YOU,POOR GAY GUY,YOU WILL ALWAYS BE CONSIDERED AN OUTCAST,EVEN IF MOMMY LOVES YOU,A YIDDISHE NACHAS YOU WONT BRING HER,SUCH AS EINIKLACH.YOU MISSED IT,FEIGALE."
-------------------------------

WOW - What a great example of ahavat yisrael

it truly makes you wonder where all this hatred and bile comes from

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:19:00 AM  

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